More On The Interrogation Question

I have a new piece up at Time.com putting some context around my posts on the question of forcing the CIA to use the Army Field Manual (AFM) for interrogations. As it stands, no Democrat is willing to take credit for the idea of abandoning the effort to force an AFM standard on the CIA. After some confusion this week, Dianne Feinstein, who will head the Intel Committee, has made clear she still wants the AFM standard, which she has led the fight to impose. She plans to reintroduce the AFM standard bill early next year. That said, she has also expressed a willingness to talk about other approaches, if Obama so chooses. But Obama would have to back out of a campaign pledge to do that, and his people are not saying anything to suggest such a move. Orgeon Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden, meanwhile, who also sits on the Intel Committee, says through a spokesman that there might be a “better” standard than the AFM.

Meanwhile, a couple human rights lobbyists and a couple of the retired generals who oppose harsh interrogations tell me they are not so worried about drafting a new standard that is not the Army Field Manual, as long as the new policy continues to stick to the principle that the U.S. will not do anything to our enemies that we do not want done to us–an idea called the “Golden Rule.” There are a couple issues here. The first is the idea of turf. Should the CIA be required to follow military rules, or can they draft something different but still acceptable?

The second issue is the space between what is prohibited by torture statutes and the Geneva Convention under a conventional reading of the law, and what the AFM permits. One person explained it to me this way: Imagine a football field with the goal line being the harshest interrogation techniques that are allowed under domestic and international laws and treaties. Most people agree that the Bush Administration has been operating deep within the end zone (if not in the bleachers) for years, with unconventional interpretations of what the law means. Everyone expects Obama to put a stop to that.

But the AFM, which is designed for use by the military, stops short of the goal line. We can call it about 80 yards down field. One question is, Should the CIA, in select circumstances, be able to use specific techniques or approaches that are allowed under a reasonable reading of the law, and even the Golden Rule standard, but not included in the AFM? In the past, Democrats saw this idea as a non-starter, because they did not trust Bush or his deputies to be reasonable, and the AFM was the only acceptable interrogation rulebook that was around to bind the administration’s hands. But there is more trust for Obama.

The tricky part is that no Democrat is currently claiming to be discussing this second issue right now. Feinstein says she still wants the AFM standard, and will try to pass the AFM standard, but is willing to talk about other ideas. Wyden says he is open to something “better.” And the nascent Obama Administration is still taking meetings, trying to figure out a plan, and not saying a word. Meanwhile, the intelligence community, which has a major seat at this table, is doing what it always does–working in the shadows.

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  • Paul-no not that one

    What was the policy in 2000 and before? Is this discussion because of our current “enemy”? Do we have to debase ourselves for their benefit?

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    The price of discretion ought to be oversight/review. What of it?

  • Cliff

    I realize I should be reading between the lines here, but I am honestly confused about what the point is of all these posts.
    Can it be boiled down to the headline: “Democrats Want Army Interrogation Standard, But Are Willing to Negotiate,” or is there some other aspect to all this that I cannot grasp because of my tiny brain?

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Anybody else notice that when the story is about the Bush administration the phrase used is “enhanced interrogation techniques” but when the story is about the Democrats its suddenly torture? Ill admit I haven’t read the story yet but some how ill bet that there won’t be much in the story about WHY the Democrats have to pass a ban on torture in the first damm place. Ill be back to say if I was right.

  • James, Los Angeles

    But the AFM, which is designed for use by the military, stops short of the goal line. We can call it the 80 yard line.
    .
    That’s your source’s opinion. I say it isn’t measurable like that. But if you insist, then it IS the goal line, since no other standard exists. Therefore, what he is proposing is to move the “goal line” and that’s what the bushies did. What makes this any different?
    .

  • sgwhiteinfla

    As God is my witness I didn’t read the article until after I submitted my last post. So here is what I found from the first sentence on.
    .

    Barack Obama won the White House with a firm promise to put an end to what critics called the Bush Administration’s use of torture on terror suspects. But as the President-elect prepares to take office, his team is quickly learning that even on such a seemingly black-and-white issue, effecting change in Washington is never as simple as it sounds on the campaign trail.
    .

    From the earliest days of his quest for the presidency, Obama said that he would eliminate the CIA’s controversial power to employ secret, harsher methods in the interrogations of detainees. “As President, I will abide by statutory prohibitions, and have the Army Field Manual govern interrogation techniques for all United States Government personnel and contractors,” he told the Boston Globe, in a December 2007 interview. (See a Who’s Who of Obama’s cabinet here.)
    .
    That military manual specifically bars the Army from using techniques that were approved in recent years by President Bush and his deputies, including waterboarding, intimidation by military dogs, the hooding of detainees and sexual humiliation. The manual approves 16 other interrogation techniques, focused mainly on non-coercive psychological manipulation.

    .
    So Scherer is it only torture when its the Democrats are trying to ban it? Or is it ALSO torture when President Bush ORDERS IT?
    .
    You know when 99% of people say a house is brown good journalists say its brown not “many people claim its brown”.
    .
    Drudge light strikes again!

  • sqr1

    Here’s the problem. When you are talking about what is TORTURE and what isn’t TORTURE, it is useless to talk in metaphors and euphamisms. Let’s get specific.
    .
    “But the AFM, which is designed for use by the military, stops short of the goal line. We can call it the 80 yard line.”
    .
    Really? Can someone please tell me what specific techniques are forbidden by the AFM that would be both effective and moral to for the CIA to use? I’m not saying they don’t exist — obviously some people believe their is daylight between the AFM and the “Golden Rule”. I’m just asking what that daylight is.
    .
    “Meanwhile, the intelligence community, which has a major seat at this table, is doing what it always does–working in the shadows.”
    .
    This leads me to another point. Many people would have us believe that in order to keep specific operations secret, we must also keep discussions of general policies “in the shadows”. This is nonsense. One of the purposes of revising the Bush administrations pro-torture policies is to send a public message that America does not engage in such practices. But it is impossible to send that message if we keep our policies in the shadows.
    .
    There is absolutely no danger in telling the world — whether friend or foe — “here is what we do and here is what we don’t do.” How else could we possibly expect the “Golden Rule” to be effective in practice?

  • shepherdwong

    “Should the CIA, in select circumstances, be able to use specific techniques or approaches that are allowed under a reasonable reading of the law, and even the Golden Rule standard, but not included in the AFM?”
    -
    Example please. And, if you can’t give one, why screw with the clear, bright line for the sake of an unlikely hypothetical?
    -
    To use your screwy analogy: if you let the runner get past the line of scrimmage, you lose control of how far he’ll go.

  • michaelscherer

    I don’t know exactly what techniques fall into that last 20 yards. A hypothetical example I mention in the story are possible lies that would be told prisoners. The AFM calls “impermissible coercion” techniques like “implying a deprivation of applicable protections guaranteed by law because of a failure to cooperate” and “threatening to separate parents from their children.”

    To read the AFM in full, go here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/6141966/Human-Intelligence-Collector-Operations-FM2223

    The applicable parts about what is prohibited starts around page 97.

  • queencersei

    If you have to wonder if a certain practice would be considered torture, then it probably is.
    Could someone please explain to me why the CIA gets to interrogate suspects anyway? Isn’t that what law enforcement is for? Shouldn’t these people either be handed over to the military or the FBI? I’ve never understood this. If someone can explain it to me, please do.

  • http://tinselwing.wordpress.com/ nicteis

    sgwhiteinfla – in Michael’s defense, it must be said that he is not using a double standard between print and blog. Or at least not as egregious a double standard as you suggest.

    He isn’t actually willing to call dogs, waterboarding, long time standing, and the rest “torture” here on the blog either. The distinction is subtler. Here, he says (quite objectively, considering that the Right is full of sadistic loonies who are happy to claim none of those things are actually illegal, much less torture) that the techniques are “prohibited by torture statutes… under a conventional reading of the law.” In print, he says that they are “what critics… called… torture”. This permits the reading, “What sufferers from Bush Derangement Syndrome called torture” – though we all, like Time’s print editors, understand that such weenyesque cavils over Bush’s manly efforts to protect us all from the Terror Zombies From Hell could only have come from DFH’s.

    You won’t get Michael to stick his neck out in print, and say there that these things violate “conventional readings” of torture statutes. You won’t get him to say on this blog that they are torture, since “some people say” that they aren’t. And “some people”, after all, dine regularly with the guys who pay the bills.

    I won’t insist on the latter, if only MS could bring himself to characterize in print as the “conventional reading” what Bob Barr and the rest of us DFHs have been saying about torture all along. How about it, Michael? Would it get past the editors if you were to break so very cleanly with the speech codes of the Village?

  • sgwhiteinfla

    queencersei
    .
    Actually no. The FBI is tasked with striclty crimes in the US. International crime is the CIA’s area. Thats why they get to interrogate people involved with international plots against America. But it also gets muddied when the international plot actually happens on American soil. To me they should be under the same umbrella working together. But some folks think it makes them better if they separate and are in competition so to speak.

  • kathy

    As late as the 60 minutes interview Obama made clear that this country will not torture under his Presidency. He has determined, correctly, that our torturing prisoners has done immeasurably more harm than it might possibly have prevented. There is no way to be “sort of” about this. It’s necessary to draw a clear and bright line on this to communicate to the rest of the world what sort of place America is. In fact, our practices send that message, which was the problem with torture. Abu Grahib was a complete and thorough descent into this country’s shadow, allowing us to project onto our enemy what was the worst in us.

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    This is a good test for Clinton/Obama. To me, the “right” answer here involves precisely what Bush was unwilling to do: engage in a little back door diplomacy to arrive at a standard which honors a broad consensus among mature and free nations. Moreover, it wouldn’t hurt to find out what kind of chit we could earn with middle eastern nations we are attempting to influence with respect to policy changes. Bush saw this as ceding our power and sovereignty. I don’t want to hand over our defense to an international committee, but the ultimate answer here should rightly include fairly extensive diplomacy. It’s all levers and I see this decision as all about setting them up to pull for the next few years. It goes much deeper than simply choosing the “right” thing – it’s about symbolism and influence and that includes talking to a wide swath of stakeholders.

  • queencersei

    Thanks sgwhiteinfla.
    I’m still unsure why the CIA does not have to follow the same rules of interrogation that others, such as the FBI or military have to obey. Even if the crime occures outside the U.S. I would think the same basic rules would apply? I just wonder how CIA has achieved its “special” status allowing it to flout laws that every other agency has to follow.

  • shepherdwong

    “A hypothetical example I mention in the story are possible lies that would be told prisoners. The AFM calls “impermissible coercion” techniques like “implying a deprivation of applicable protections guaranteed by law because of a failure to cooperate” and “threatening to separate parents from their children.”
    -
    So threatening prisoners is prohibited (whether lying or not), just as it should be.
    -
    The jury is already in on this issue: the way to secure cooperation is by gaining trust, not by mistreatment or threats of same as that usually hardens the subject to his captors, rendering any information obtained suspect. So lies designed to cultivate trust or secure cooperation (if you tell us, you get 71 virgins) might make sense and I see nothing in the AFM to prevent it. But you only get to shoot that load once per prisoner because you lose trust and once the word gets out, that particular technique is worthless.
    -
    We should adhere to the rules as they have been followed for the past 60 years and, if deemed absolutely necessary, carefully break them in secret, just like we’ve been doing for the past 60 years.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Can I just say that this whole thing is completely backwards. To the degree one would ever permit torture, it would be in an instance where time is more important than reliability of the intelligence obtained. One can conceive of this, plausibly (the Dirty Harry ticking time bomb scenarios are not plausible), on the battlefield, where troop dispositions or numbers may be the difference between deploying force effectively or ineffectively.
    .
    The place where there would conceivably be exceptions is not the CIA, which should be much more concerned about accuracy of intelligence, above all else, but armed forces in the field. There’s no reason, I can think of, that doesn’t involve principles we do not believe in, for allowing the CIA to torture people but not the military.
    .

  • formerlyjames

    sg, the CIA has no authority in international law. When the CIA take custody of a person it is usually of questionable legality, and the agency has be charged, in Italy, for example with criminal offenses. The CIA is primarily an intelligence gathering and analytical organization. Things get ugly from their operational activities, although they did orchestrate the early in Afghanistan, not the military.

    .
    My point is that issue of CIA activities is extremely complicated before the issue of torture even arises. Before answering the question of what interrogation techniques they should be allowed, the first question is whether they even have legal custody of the individual.

  • sqr1

    How is DiFi a Senator, anyway? Did she somehow obtain incriminating photgraphs on 50%+1 of California residents?

  • formerlyjames

    my post is a mess of typos. sorry. I’ll be more careful next time.

  • formerlyjames

    I have seen little reference to the FBI in all of this discussion. They have more history in the subject than the military and CIA put together. They also managed to not be implicated in the scandles during the Bush administration.

  • pintortwo

    80 yard line?!
    That’s where the guy can throw the ball for a home run pass, then the other guy can kick it between the yellow-stick thingies…

  • queencersei

    formerlyjames: I seem to recall reading a couple of months back that the FBI was present during some of the CIA’s interigations and questioned the legality of their actions at the time. As I recall the FBI started keeping a file on CIA activites that they called the “war crimes file” or something to that effect.

  • wiskyjokerromeo

    On Leave 1976 Ask the CIA agent at the cIA’s Home camp U.s. Of A. While we had a nice little dicussion about .torture..
    naerly knock his head off, bust his jaw,, definately had to snap his neck.. How the torture tecnique Now, man,, If youare still alive.. and your father is still a F888ucking moron,., if the old gray hair geeser is still alve>.

    You know I don;t have toplace my name here.. Nyc…the Phony CIA .. detroit excuse me ..Chicagp PD Police depatermnt I suppose..
    how did the boys and girls do with Ladies of the evening from new yorks finaest ally’s..

    Guess what you check speellings this time i did tech writing. i was good at it.. at some timwe int my life…how am i doing??.

  • queencersei

    formerlyjames – here is a link to an article I found on the subject: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/05/21/1211182897520.html

  • formerlyjames

    queencersei, thanks, although I haven’t looked at it yet, I will. I remember reading about the issue and FBI agents refusing to partipate in Gitmo interrogations because they believed the techniques to be clearly illegal.

    .
    Back to sg’s point of CIA international authority. They are actually prohibited from engaging in intelligence activities domestically, whereas the FBI operates, legally, both domestically and internationally.

  • queencersei

    I’m still confused as to why, if CIA is an intelligence gathering agency, that they are allowed to hold people or run interigations. They are not law enforcement or military. I can see them being in the room, but don’t understand them actually being in charge of captives and directing their treatment.

  • exile500

    We can call it the 80 yard line.

    .

    Which fans of football frequently refer to as the 20 yard line. But no matter.

  • michaelscherer

    exile500, pintortwo, I changed to 80 yards down field, to keep the metaphor kosher with the Sports Illustrated copy editors. (I think what’s really going in on is I was subconsciously lashing out at proper football terminology because the Redskins are not living up to the hype.)

  • formerlyjames

    queencersei, that is my point exactly. This discussion of interrogation is just the surface of concerns about CIA activities. They are a clandestine operation who operate as much illegally as legally. In the schizo Bush administration they were loved (by Bush and the neocons), and hated (by Cheney and Rummey). They were in charge in military prisons because they were allowed to be. The AbuGrahib scandal revolves all around them, but only low level military personnel were held accountable.

    .
    The ran the rendition program, which was largely illegal, and they didn’t give a tinker’s damn. They kidnapped people and flew them all over the world for illegal purposes.
    .
    Again, as far as the CIA, the concerns run much deeper than just the interrogation techniques.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    . When the CIA take custody of a person it is usually of questionable legality
    .
    What’s questionable about it? It’s illegal. Kidnapping is kidnapping The whole business of spying is illegal. That’s why the tape self-destructed at the end of mission impossible.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Scherer
    .
    You could save yourself a lot of trouble by just referring to it as “the red zone”. Every football fan will know what you mean.

  • shepherdwong

    “(…the Redskins are not living up to the hype.)”
    -
    You haven’t been around very long, have you?

    Stick around. As you get older and, hopefully, wiser you’ll become less susceptible to hype of all kinds.

  • formerlyjames

    jay, I agree with all that you say, but stop at spying being illegal. Intelligence gathering and analysis is necessary for all countries, including ours. But that is not to say that it should be allowed to run amuck as the CIA has profoundly been allowed. I won’t even go into the absurdity of it all (remember the Castro assination attempts?), but I do acknowledge that some rational spook activity is necessary.

  • formerlyjames

    furthermore, I hate football analogies.

  • queencersei

    So my question is that if it is flat out illegal for CIA to hold, interrogate, move or in any other way take control of people inside or outside of the U.S., why are they allowed to do it? Don’t seem to see anyone outside of this forum questioning the CIA’s right to hold or interrogate prisons, despite the fact that they are clearly not a law enforcement body. So I wonder what I am missing.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    but stop at spying being illegal. Intelligence gathering and analysis is necessary for all countries, including ours.
    .
    What legal activity do you designate as “spying”? Any kind of legal activity is open source, academic study, right? I mean, Juan Cole isn’t “spying.” If you call what Joe Wilson did “spying,” you’re right. And it’s true most of the information the CIA gathers is gathered legally from open sources. In fact, I’m an advocate for open source intelligence.
    .
    This may merely be a question of semantics, but it seems to me that being a station chief carrying diplomatic credentials under false cover is illegal pretty much everywhere.

  • sqr1

    Formerlyjames: I have a quibble with calling rendition “illegal”. We can make rendition totally legal under U.S. law. I’m not too concerned about violating the laws of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, etc. And international law is largely meaningless from a legal standpoint (although it is useful in providing a moral framework). The main question isn’t whether the CIA is actually breaking laws but whether they should be — legal or not — performing renditions.

  • formerlyjames

    jay, I agree for the most part. But remember the atomic secrets vioation that were the result of esponiage activity. Of course that would fall under counter-intelligence, but still, we need to know what is happening around the world. It can be open, and it can be clandestine. Whatever.

    .
    sqr1, you speak of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia (there is a government there?), but I speak of UK, Italy, Spain, and real democracies, whose laws were violated in the rendition program. I don’t think they traveled through France or Germany, who wouldn’t put up with the kidnappings, but I may be wrong.

  • sqr1

    formerlyjames:

    But I suspect your real concern, like mine, isn’t a violation of the laws of UK, Italy, Spain, etc., but rather that the entire program appears to have been fundamentally immoral.

    I have a problem with grabbing Canadian citizens in the U.S. and shipping them off to be tortured in Syria. Relatively speaking, if the plane stops over in the UK to refuel, do I care if UK laws are being broken? Not a big concern.

  • formerlyjames

    sqr1, your cavalier attitude toward the laws of other countries (even the UK? for god’s sake, we got our own laws from there and France!!!) only translates to lack of concern for the laws of our country. That is called anarchy. I am not in favor.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    @queen: There are those who would argue that Bush has broken quite a few of the laws he pledged to uphold, and should be punished, if not impeached. Well? Where’s the groundswell of concern for that?

    I agree with your premise: people should be held accountable. Moreso if they have additional responsibilities as agents of the government. But until the AG or Congress does something about it, we “commoners” can only kvetch and vote for candidates who pledge to change things.

  • formerlyjames

    adendum, sqr1…I agree with all you said until “do I care if UK laws are being broken? Not a big concern.”

    .
    You have spoken for the Republican Party and I heartily disagree on that. The rest, the immorality, the torture, Syria and all, agree.
    That word “Relatively” seems to be a matter of contention between us.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    MS: thanks for dogging this issue. I’m ashamed at what the Bush government did, supposedly in the name of protecting us.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    I dunno, formerlyjames: should we care about upholding sharia law in those countries that officially support it?

    I don’t think sqr1 is saying, “Let’s ignore their laws, whatever the country.” More like the fact that a plane, holding a person who was kidnapped, and stops illegally in, say, England, is smaller potatoes than the fact that the guy was kidnapped in the first place.

    Should I turn myself over to the Chinese consulate for saying their supreme leader sucks eggs, which is probably against their law?

  • sqr1

    MNG: Exactly. And if the UK has a problem with our actions, they have numerous avenues by which they can address them.
    .
    The rendition and detention issues increasingly are looking like the violations of rights without any remedies.

  • formerlyjames

    Mr. Nice Guy, are you just trying to stir me up? I don’t know how to respond. I will try. Yes, kidnapping is illegal in our country and most countries, with possible exceptions, and I don’t know about sharia law, but would not be surprised at whatever it proclaims, just as I am not surprised at the Christian prothezations (give me a break on that word, I tried…). Anyway, how did we get here from the matter of torture and whether it is good or bad?

  • formerlyjames

    sqr1, I don’t understand. Yes or no. You support the rendition program? You are defending it? Forgive my little brain not being able to exactly grasp where you are coming from.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Is anybody gonna tell Glenn Greenwald that Scherer is a McCainiac? Because at this point Greenwald is using Scherer’s posts on torture to try to take down the whole Democratic party it seems.
    .
    I am usually a fan of Greenwald’s work but one thing is bugging me about this situation. He is seriously trying to argue that the NYTimes holding back the last sentence of Feinstein’s statement was not a big deal. This is the same guy 3 or 4 days ago who was taking NBC to task for not revealing that Gen Caffery was being paid by defense contractors while doing guest spots on their network. And to try to state this line doesn’t give the whole statement a totally different tone, to me, is intellectually dishonest.
    .

    However, my intent is to pass a law that effectively bans torture, complies with all laws and treaties, and provides a single standard across the government.”

  • sgwhiteinfla

    formerly james
    .
    Let me give you one of my famous (in my on mind) analogies to explain where sqr1 is coming from
    .
    Say somebody busts the windows out of your car. And then say they go two blocks over and flattens somebody’s tires. Are you going to care if the people who had their tire flattened want to press charges? Or will you press charges no matter what because of what he did to your car.
    .
    sqr1 is saying no matter where the plane went after the kidnapping, the kidnapping itself was bad enough. Meaning even if the plane just flew around America over and over again the damage was already done because of the kidnapping part. So we have this great word “rendition” now but really we should be focusing on the kidnapping because with out the kidnapping there could be no rendition in the first place.
    .
    Now I think i over explained it.

  • formerlyjames

    sg, thanks for that. My eyes did glaze over some, and I still don’t understand. I follow the kidnapping being wrong thing. I follow the damage being done thing. The broken windows and slashed tires leave me confused. But, sg, I did enjoy trying to decifer your explaination.
    .

    I won’t press charges on the street thugs. But I will on the holders of our democracy. lol. Thanks, sg.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    formerlyjames: No, I don’t support the rendition program. That’s flat out wrong.

    Ok, try this analogy: I kidnap Joe the Plumber and render him extraordinarily to Afghanistan. In the process, before he’s out of the country, I verbally threaten Joe, which is technically assault. Now, if I’m a Bushie, I’m not brought to trial at all, but if I’m anyone else, when I’m brought to trial, the assault charge will be more or less ignored in the proceedings because it’s so small in comparison.

    A-bombs compared to water balloons.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    But I suspect your real concern, like mine, isn’t a violation of the laws of UK, Italy, Spain, etc., but rather that the entire program appears to have been fundamentally immoral.
    .
    Spying pretty much by definition is breaking other countries’ laws. Who is the US to say that other countries laws are no-countsies? Where does this idea come from? If a Somali was taking pictures of a nuclear facility, illegally, would you say “Oh, that’s okay. he’s a Somali. Our laws don’t apply.”
    .
    The depths to which American exceptionalism runs never ceases to astound me.

  • trifecta

    It’s kinda tough to torture somebody and then set them free. They might hold a grudge for some bizarre reason.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    Jay, I agree, to some extent; the US is not so great that it should engage in double-standards by default. But, just like the South was wrong to persist in slavery after the 14th Amendment came on-line, some other countries _are_ wrong to create and uphold laws that are, in fact, crimes against humanity. Genital mutilation, for example.

    In those cases, observing their laws would actually be criminal, despite their statutes.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Let me try this again

    .
    I think the question sqr1 is asking is are you more outraged about the fact that kidnapping and rendition happened or that it happened in certain foreign countries. I think people are taking it as though sqr1 is saying that whatever is done in another country is ok. I didn’t take it that way at all. I believe what they are saying is that even if a country said it was perfectly ok for the U.S. to use rendition in their country, for all of us its still morally wrong. An more to the point even if the U.S. never took any of the people they kidnapped to another country we would still be morally outraged because of the kidnapping. Basically we are all agreeing that rendition was wrong and we never should have done it.

  • James, Los Angeles

    Michael,
    .
    I tried to read your piece, linked in your post, but the page was far too ad-heavy. I got through the first 4-5 paragraphs and the scrolling was so slow because of the intrusive ads that I gave up. So I’ll have to miss that. Please inform your High Sheriffs that there is a tipping point where too many ads become money losers because people can’t/won’t tolerate the intrusion. They reached that tipping point. Sorry.

    .
    I recommend that everyone interested in this debate take the time to watch this: TORTURINGDEMOCRACY.ORG. It’s a fine, fine documentary.

  • formerlyjames

    Every country conducts spying. They all know it, and to a certain extent, condone it. It is not necessarity illegal. Pooring over newspapers and analyzing what is happening in that country is spying in a sense. Spying is not all clandestine, it is just trying to know what is happening around the world, trends, attitudes, opinions.

    .
    Rendition, kidnapping, torture, are beyond that, and I don’t know that it contributes much to the cause. I have lost the thread here. I don’t know now what we are talking about. The lines of legality, morality, and right and wrong are all balled up here. Sort of like the Republican Party, I guess. Whatever, I know decency when I see it. I haven’t seen any for 8 years. Good night everybody.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    The right answer here is not for the executive branch to have zero latitude in the highest stakes interrogations,” Wittes said. “And you don’t have to be Dick Cheney to believe that.” In the past, members of the intelligence community have also argued for keeping some approved methods of interrogation classified, so as not to tip off enemies to what they might possibly face in the future.

    Again the biggest problem I have with this whole discussion is the concept of latitude. As soon as there’s latitude then there’s no longer a line preventing torture. I’m sympathetic to the notion that techniques might need to be classified, but as soon as you suggest that agents in the field sholuld be free to apply their own judgment then all bets are off. Genuine, unambiguous torture will be soon to follow. Has everyone forgotten how much fun the soldiers at Abu Ghraib appeared to be having?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    formerlyjames–
    .
    I don’t know any way to say this more clearly. Reading newspapers, clipping out stories and putting them in a book labeled Top Secret is indeed a large part of what American (or any other intelligence service) intelligence services do.
    .
    The thing we call spying, the stuff that gets kept secret, “to preserve techniques and methods” is necessarily illegal in the countries where it is practiced. That’s the whole point. Spies break laws. They tap phones. They search people’s rooms. They use diplomatic status for cover.
    .
    If it were legal, like reading the paper and clipping out columns, spies wouldn’t need to pretend to be diplomatic envoys. They could just sit at the consulate desk, clipping out stories and putting them in a notebook. The entire enterprise is illegal. That’s the effin’ point. You don’t need diplomatic immunity if you aren’t breaking the law.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Genital mutilation, for example.
    .
    Yeah. I won’t got to a bris. Or a baptism, either. It’s not just the mutilation that’s the issue, but jeez, have you been in a group shower?
    .
    Sorry. Hobbyhorse.
    .
    In those cases, observing their laws would actually be criminal, despite their statutes
    .
    No, the point is that violating their laws is illegal. And that’s what spies do. they violate the laws of the countries they’re stationed in. That’s their frickin’ job. I do not know what is so hard to understand about this.

  • James, Los Angeles

    Has everyone forgotten how much fun the soldiers at Abu Ghraib appeared to be having?

    It was worse than that. Far worse.

    Please take the time to watch this: TORTURINGDEMOCRACY.ORG

    This is the documentary which PBS **can not show** until Jan 21.

    And, also, What took so long? Why did we have to wait for a new administration for this issue to get wide wide play in MSM and action by our leaders?
    .
    Because Obama has always been saying he’d end both. You know, people outside of the liberal blogos could have been writing stridently about this. WHEN IT COULD HAVE DONE SOME GOOD.
    .
    For ***years*** our leaders and corporate media have tiptoed around this issue, airbrushing, ignoring, couched in orwellian doublespeak. And the bushies literally got away with murder and war crimes. And NOW people step up to the plate and start some action. If these people had acted years ago, instead of just us crazy liberals howling into the empty wilderness, maybe they would have been forced to stop.
    .
    When they were ***doing it.****

    .
    It galls me that now, now with a new administration who has been outspoken about putting a stop to this national stain, people are falling all over themselves to prohibit HIM from doing.
    .
    That tells me that the next time we won’t be able to stop it WHILE IT IS HAPPENING either. So what’s the good of once again prohibiting what has always been against the law? Not that the whole exercise shouldn’t be done; if nothing else, maybe we can regain our moral compass. But I’m pessimistic about the prospect of doing any good in the long run.

  • plukasiak

    The second issue is the space between what is prohibited by torture statutes and the Geneva Convention under a conventional reading of the law, and what the AFM permits

    in fact, there is no space there.

    The Geneva Conventions prohibit any form of coercion in the interrogation of prisoners of war — and don’t have a different standard when it comes to interrogating civilians. Even civilians who are designated as security threats (i.e. actual and potential “spies as saboteurs”) are still “protected persons” under the 4th Geneva Convention, and while such individuals can be detained, and have their communication rights curtailed, those are the only rights they lose. (If convicted of a crime detained persons are subject to punishment consistent with human rights/dignity, but that conviction must be accomplished by a duly constituted court of law. In other words, under the Geneva Conventions, no coercive techniques are permissible under any circumstances when interrogating either civilian detainees (4th Convention) or POWs (3rd convention), period.

  • acidj

    no Democrat is willing to take credit for the idea of abandoning the effort to force an AFM standard on the CIA
    .
    This is surely the weirdest construction I have ever seen used to describe a political position. If no one’s taking credit for it, or talking about it, is it actually an idea?
    .
    Also, torture as a “thought experiment” or “football analogy” is rather disturbing. What of torture as a “war crime” punishable by imprisonment or whatever it is they do to punish war criminals?

  • James, Los Angeles

    First you say:
    .
    The second issue is the space between what is prohibited by torture statutes and the Geneva Convention under a conventional reading of the law, and what the AFM permits.
    .
    Then you say
    .
    The tricky part is that no Democrat is currently claiming to be discussing this second issue right now.
    .
    Um, okaaaay. What does this mean, Scherer? Republicans are discussing it? Republicans are claiming to be discussing it? Democrats claimed to be discussing it in the past but not currently? Democrats are currently discussing it while not claiming to be discussing it?
    .
    Or are you just pulling this idea of “space” out of thin air?
    .
    I’m with pluk on this. And I see no good reason why CIA should have looser standards than military. None. At least military supposedly has leadership that can (eventually) be held accountable for violations, but CIA doesn’t, and they can’t be trusted to police themselves, as we have seen demonstrated time and time again.
    .

  • shepherdwong

    Look, there are some very, very bad actors out there and there is little price to be paid legally, or possibly morally, for taking them out of action, no country in the world would hope or dare to say otherwise. But that necessary evil is completely different from what we’ve been doing under Bush/Cheney. It should be about humane treatment and justice. We all know it when we see it.

  • montazerimeister

    hi, to attempt to answer the “looser standards” question, wouldn’t it seem somewhat necessary if the situation already called for extraction of sorts. it was mentioned earlier that they have no jurisdiction, nor are they on american soil, so what, just politely ask the one who denied information to us already? the CIA can’t just ask, therer are no consquences for refusing to cooperate with someone who has no legal pull. and in the case of the military, well, they have alot bigger toys than the CIA, offensively anyway.

    For the diplomatic immunity and the false cover, in the intelligence community, knowledge obtained without notice is best. finding codes or valuable information on locations does no good when you announce it to both sides, who can then get things moving. and if they just sit and search endlessly through newpapers, it is knid of easy to figure out what he knows. the immunity comes in to protect the asset, the spy, so he cant be detained for fabricated crimes, and it isn’t just our country’s spies that have immunity, that is decently spread around the worlds other civilizations as well.

    and one final thing, where someone differentiated earlier between physical and psychological damage, they were correct in their definition, but in its possible effects, off just a hair. physical damage, or other coercive means are more effective at getting info, and yes, bodily harm is always one slip up away, but the pychological shakedown will usually last longer, and psychological damage can be far more hazardous, leading to mental illnesses that cant be ignored. Psychoanalysis had determined that the body is likely to repress images and memories of bodily harm and experiences such as abuse and humilitation.

  • http://cms.salon.com/2008/12/05/torture-32/ Vague pledges to “end torture” and “comply with treaties and laws”

    [...] by the Obama Administration, if it chooses to do so,” and, more generally in light of the obvious discomfort Democrats are exhibiting on this issue right [...]

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