Feminism and The Three Arguments Against Gay Marriage

Arguments against gay marriage tend to fall into three broad categories: it is a threat to tradition (the idea is historically not sanctioned; the bible does not approve); it is a threat to children (kids will learn about homosexuality in school, confuse gender roles, or even become gay themselves); and it is a threat to heterosexual marriage (the straight family structure will collapse).

The first argument, tradition, is the one closest to faith. It is not subject to much debate. If one believes that God condemns homosexuality, then that’s what one believes, no matter what the American Psychological Association says. But precisely because this argument is so personal, and so religious, it is the least used by opponents of gay marriage in public debate. You don’t see many quotes from Leviticus being read on the Senate floor.

The second argument, children, tends to only show up at the most heated political moments, often with devastating effect. During the Proposition 8 campaign in California, opponents of gay marriage repeatedly evoked innocent children in their advertising campaign. The campaign claimed that a state constitutional amendment to ban men from marrying men, and women from marrying women, had “everything to do with schools.” This is an indirect argument, of course. No one has proposed teaching second graders about homosexuality. But if the state officially sanctions gay unions, the notion that gay unions are not an abomination (see tradition) is certain to filter down. The secondary argument, about gay parents and gender roles, meanwhile, is based on an unfounded fear, at least according to scientists at the American Psychological Association. There is no evidence that children of same-sex parents are worse off, nor is there evidence children of same-sex parents are more likely to become gay.

The third argument, that gay marriage threatens straight marriage, is the most prominent in the public debate. Outspoken opponents of gay marriage, like Kansas Sen. Sam Brownback, can expand at length about Nordic marriage trends, where gay unions are not so frowned upon. This argument follows from the idea that marriage is a singular societal institution that is instrumental in keeping straight couples together. If the definition of the institution changed, goes the argument, then straight couples would be less likely to think marriage is important, and therefore less likely to stay together for the sake of their children. As President Bush likes to say, “Changing the definition of marriage would undermine the family structure.”

As a straight guy who grew up in San Francisco, where gay culture is ubiquitous, I have never felt the tug of this argument. Why would the gay couple next door make me less interested in monogamy, my fidelity to a woman I loved, or my desire to provide a stable family structure for my children? I bring all this up because the great American essayist Richard Rodriguez, who is a practicing Catholic, a gay man, and a long-time resident of San Francisco, seems to have an answer to this question, in an interview published in Salon. His description of the effects of the straight marriage crisis now roiling the nation should not be missed. Read an excerpt after the jump.

American families are under a great deal of stress. The divorce rate isn’t declining, it’s increasing. And the majority of American women are now living alone. We are raising children in America without fathers. I think of Michael Phelps at the Olympics with his mother in the stands. His father was completely absent. He was negligible; no one refers to him, no one noticed his absence. The possibility that a whole new generation of American males is being raised by women without men is very challenging for the churches. I think they want to reassert some sort of male authority over the order of things. I think the pro-Proposition 8 movement was really galvanized by an insecurity that churches are feeling now with the rise of women.

Monotheistic religions feel threatened by the rise of feminism and the insistence, in many communities, that women take a bigger role in the church. At the same time that women are claiming more responsibility for their religious life, they are also moving out of traditional roles as wife and mother. This is why abortion is so threatening to many religious people — it represents some rejection of the traditional role of mother.

In such a world, we need to identify the relationship between feminism and homosexuality. These movements began, in some sense, to achieve visibility alongside one another. I know a lot of black churches take offense when gay activists say that the gay movement is somehow analogous to the black civil rights movement. And while there is some relationship between the persecution of gays and the anti-miscegenation laws in the United States, I think the true analogy is to the women’s movement. What we represent as gays in America is an alternative to the traditional male-structured society. The possibility that we can form ourselves sexually — even form our sense of what a sex is — sets us apart from the traditional roles we were given by our fathers.

Read the full interview here.

Related Topics: Uncategorized
  • Latest on Swampland

    Pete Souza / The White House via Getty Images

    Political Picures of the Week, May 18-25

    TIME’s photo editors bring you the best pictures of the past week from the Beltway and beyond.

    Obama Administration Blocks Global Health Fund To Fight Disease In Developing NationsHuffPost Politics

    From left: AP; ABACAUSA

    The Phony War: Obama and Romney Are Debating Character, Not Policy

    More than five months from Election Day, the back-and-forth about Mitt Romney’s record at Bain already feels played out. Unfortunately, there’s good reason to expect the campaign continues in this vein indefinitely. Neither Barack Obama nor Mitt Romney are terribly interested in dwelling on policy platforms. Romney’s plan to slash spending and keep taxes low on the wealthy isn’t especially popular, at least not at any level of detail beyond a blithe promise to shrink the deficit. Meanwhile, Obama’s signature first-term achievements, like health care, the stimulus and Wall Street reform, are all unpopular or tricky to sell. (The Dodd-Frank bill is the most popular of these, but hyping it means offending wealthy donors.) So what we’re getting instead is a superficial duel about character–and, worse, one that’s based on the largely false premise that the better man can better “manage” the economy back to health.

  • gysgt213

    Through out history marriage has changed so many times, that I simply don’t buy any of the arguments. Except if you want to include fear and phobia as primary motivators for any type of discrimination.

  • ivb3016

    Thank you so much for this link, Michael. I would have missed it otherwise. I think it is also partly a generational thing. As more gay people live lives that are open and public people in general will feel less threatened. I see a difference in attitudes between sixty year olds and thirty year olds.

  • Andy from MA

    Change the word “Gay” to “mixed” and what do you get? I think everyone should read the Salon piece. Thanks for providing a link, MS.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    I agree that those are the “arguments” made against gay marriage but I think the real REASONS against gay marriage comes mostly from two perspectives. The “its against my religion” perspective, and the “yuck” perspective as Ta-nesi Coates at the Atlantic put it. There are people who sincerely believe that all things gay are an abomination due to their religious upbringing. Now we can argue religion with them and argue whichever holy book they follow, but ultimately what usually wins out is what someone has taught them for years and years, not some “new” explanation for scripture that we provide them with. Simlilarly for those “yuck” people who are predisposed against gay people simply becaue they see it as something nasty its hard to argue with them over whether gay sex is a beautiful thing. They have believed what they believed for years and any argument over it will probably just make them recoil further. Mind you, yes I understand that many times the “yuck” factor is actually an indication of a revulsion of their own curiosity. But again a psychological profile of the person will not generally be a persuasive argument. To me if people want to get Prop 8 off the books forever what they should be doing is in fact connecting it and legislation like it to specific civil rights and women’s rights fights not to either movement in full. First of all when you try to over generalize with wide strokes like “the civil rights movement” or “the women’s rights movement” you are bound to piss people off who don’t believe the analogy is valid. But if you go issue by issue then you don’t get bogged down in those kinds of frivolous arguments. A ban on gay marriage is directly analgous with the Loving Supreme Court case because both are based on the Government trying to tell citizens of this country who they can and can not marry. Whether that prohibition is over interracial couples or same sex couples the premise that the government is meddling with people’s lives usually resonates with most citizens no matter how they feel about the actual issue. The main point of all of this is that Government shouldn’t be in the business of defining who we can love or not love or who we can marry or not marry. To me if that kind of message is framed for the people, not just of California, but for this whole country then you will see gay marriage bans dissappear never to be brought back up again. There will always be a few hard core social conservatives still banging the drum but fiscal conservatives who really be live less government is always the way to go will see that its foolish to keep fighting this fight that has less to do with religious beliefs and more to do with trying to use government to control people’s lives

  • gysgt213

    The selling of Sarah Palin. The MSM can not get enough of this woman. MSNBC has a story on about her every hour this morning.

  • incandenzah

    Thanks for linking to this, Michael.

  • gysgt213

    Joe has a good column up.
    .
    Bush’s Last Days: The Lamest Duck
    .
    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1862307,00.html

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    In an article last week in the New Yorker, Red Sex, Blue Sex, about the different attitudes about sex among teenaged girls in different regions of the country, the frequency of teen pregnancy among the red staters was a key theme. This leads to early marriage, often to someone other than the father of the baby and, unsurprisingly, a higher divorce rate.
    .
    This, of course, has nothing to do with teh gai, and I don’t see how feminism is relevant either, but it is a problem of education, and of dealing with reality (teens have sex) vs fantasy (Not my little cupcake). This is, at heart, the same thing. Not everybody is straight. Deal with it.

  • gysgt213

    “Not everybody is straight.”
    .
    So called straight people also seem to involve themselves in some freaky scenes. But that’s a story for another time.

  • palininatowel

    Here’s my guess: If gays are permitted to get married, their divorce rate will be exactly equal to the divorce rate of the general population.
    .
    I know plenty of gay people (including my business partner of nearly two decades) and their interpersonal relationships have all the same issues as those of straight people. So to all the religious folks who want to drum up phony arguments for preventing gays from being married I have a newsflash: Gays are people just like you and me. Gay partners get ticked off when one or the other constantly leaves dirty dishes in the sink or leaves socks on the living room floor. Or drinks too much, or has an affair or… The list goes on and on.
    .
    And they are good and bad parents, just like the rest of us.
    .
    One wonders how people who profess to being followers of Jesus can sit in judgment of others.
    .
    Another reason why I gave up on organized religion…

  • Ohg Rea Tone

    My mother is eighty five years old – she spoke with amazing common sense on the issue of gay marriage. ……….

    http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/11/02/old-women-talk-politics/

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    gunny–
    .
    I suppose it’s fairer to say that everybody is on a continuum. Hard to know, though. Given the stigma attached by so many to teh gai. I once had a weird argument about Magic Johnson, and how he managed to contract AIDS. The possibility that Magic might have been on the bottom once or twice completely freaked out this person. I knew a guy who had dealings with the NBA. He remarked on the extraordinary nature of the social scene, on the road.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Notice it was a gay MAN who brought feminism into the equation. Of course for the right wingers feminists are buzz cut flaming lesbians who also sleep with every guy they meet in hopes of getting pregnant so they can once again find joy in aborting their child. That guy probably did more harm than good trying to speak on a subject that it would seem he doesn’t know a lot about

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Actually, palinatowel, I’d expect a lower divorce rate, and a lower marriage rate. A lotta straight people get married because they think they are supposed to. I suspect gay couples will make more thoughtful decisions in this regard. At least until it becomes routine

  • http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/11/26/feminism-and-the-three-arguments-against-gay-marriage/ - The Fireside Post

    [...] Read Full Post Here Book Mark it-> del.icio.us | Reddit | Slashdot | Digg | Facebook | Technorati | Google | StumbleUpon | Window Live | Tailrank | Furl | Netscape | Yahoo | BlinkList Tags: american, association, children, Gay, hererosexual, marriage, scherer, Spychological, Time, tradition [...]

  • palininatowel

    I don’t know, jay. Things tend to the mean. Maybe you’re right that initial gay marriages will be “more thoughtful,” but I think most straight couples think they’re getting married “forever” when they marry, too.
    .
    And it only works out that way in about 50% of the cases.

  • mithra5

    My 4 ex-wives and I are in complete support of the santity of marriage.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    jayackroyd
    .
    That hasn’t proven to be the case so far. In fact there are a lot of gay couples who WANT to divorce but can’t because they can’t find a court that will decide their case. There have been several articles written about this. In fact when you think about it because gay marriage will be the “new fresh thing” there will more than likely be an inclination for gay couples to do it on a whim just like straight couples do who elope in Vegas. As you said teh gais are just like the rest of us and that means some of them are impulsive and stoopid too!

  • sgwhiteinfla

    OT
    .
    The next time you see CNN anchors or guests bashing the UAW or the EFCA just remember that they don’t have clean hands as a company.
    .

    I read the news today:
    .

    Judge Arthur Amchan found that CNN violated the rights of more than 250 employees at the network’s bureaus in Washington, D.C., and New York City when it ended its subcontract with Team Video Services (TVS) [in 2003-2004], whose employees were represented by NABET-CWA. He also ruled that CNN discriminated against TVS employees who wanted to continue working at CNN’s bureaus to avoid having to recognize and bargain with the union.

    .
    A couple of points. One is just to observe that labor law and its enforcement in this country are a joke. You want to engage in some illegal union busting in 2003-2004 and, at worst, you’ll get mild punishment for having done so years in the future.

  • usesherbrain

    MS, aren’t you supposed to be on vacation? Thanks for an excellent post.
    .
    Anyhow, interesting thought process. I had never really tied the Church’s attempt to control homosexuality to losing their grasp on a patriarchal society.
    .
    As a member of the Episcopal church, we’ve gotten over much of the need for patriarchal guidance, with women as priests and bishops (presiding bishop, even!) fairly commonplace. We have one openly practicing gay bishop (controversial even within the church and definitely the Anglican communion, but still there!) and some churches blessing gay unions (the church currently has a ban against performing true “marriages” as stated in the Prayer Book, but they are asking God’s blessing on gay people-and not to “fix” them!).
    .
    Maybe there is something to say for it being tied to feminism… I know we’re one of the only religions with female leadership.
    .
    Regardless, my hope is that the religious community will eventually realize that “love your neighbor…” and “do unto others…” does not have some sort of escape clause.

  • pafro

    An argument I’ve heard often and recently (AZ resident) is that marriage is for people to have children and since gays can’t have children they shouldn’t marry.
    This of course brings up the question of why the anti-gay party doesn’t try to make it illegal for infertile or elderly people to marry.
    Much like anti-choicers who refuse to go on record that women who have abortions should go to jail for murder,as would follow from their argument, these people are cowards who either run from their true convictions or are lying about what those convictions really are.

  • http://www.ghostnote.com Cookie Puss

    As Ludacris would say, “Stay outta my bizness!”

  • toph1

    George Lakoff addresses this in his book “Don’t Think of an Elephant! Know Your Values and Frame the Debate”. He puts it into the context of reference frames, and how the right invokes a paternalistic reference frame that is threatened by homosexuality and non-traditional families.
    It’s a good read, and short. Deals a lot with the linguistics of recent politics.

  • queencersei

    If you really want to regulate marriage according to the Bible then someone needs to start advocating a constiutional ban on divorce. If you think the Bible is against homosexuals you should read what it says about divorcees. Or adultery. But then again half of the people who support a ban on gay marriage have been divorced or committed adultry. I seem to recall that book also mentioning something about not throwing stones….

  • Art Pepper

    Of course, all the arguments about gay people destroying the family assume that gay people don’t have families.
    -
    Personally I think reasons #2 and #3 are always a dodge for reason #1, religion. But to admit that would be to admit what’s obvious – that the ban is unconstitutional.

  • FlownOver

    I was happily married until a few states sanctioned same-sex marriage, then I had to tell my devoted spouse it was over. When asked why, I could only respond “Sam Brownback says the existence of these gay marriages have somehow damaged our commitment to each other, and he’s a pretty smart guy, so I guess we have to end it.”
    .
    I have an equally important, but unrelated concern: since the introduction of the ShamWow there have been numerous deaths on American highways and among our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Why isn’t someone doing something to amend the Constitution to ban this insidious product?

  • unnamed6

    This argument comes down to in the constitution there states there will be no laws made from religion. Therefore there should be no law or ban on same sex marriages. This should come down to if the church the couple goes to will acknowledge the marrage, if not get married elsewhere where they will consent. This should be down to individual churches and pastors and those able to marry people off deciding whether or not to participate, other than that it goes against the constitution! Lift the ban and leave those who have nothing to do with you life alone, they only want what “married” couples now have. And whos to say that they will not help the statistics of divorce. Whose to say they will not make the divorce rate go down rather than up. Won’t churches be happy with that?

  • effedup

    For God sakes, this equality thing is going too far..let’s just leave marriage for Man+woman. that’s how God intended it from the inception. Sex was never made to be enjoyed between 2men, 2women or man+beast period. All that i have read and know about homosexuality, it’s just about the sex. Lord knows it’s the most perverted lifestyle.
    I have no doubt in my mind that men/women are born with a bit extra hormone of the opposite sex but that does not make them the other sex period! and God only created MAN and WOMAN. Man was made for woman (or vice versa) and that’s how it’s gonna be. For all the folks who insist on turning everything on its head you should try taking up some humane cause like fighting poverty world wide, or the misguided war by BUSHCO

  • http://www.equalmarriagenow.com/2008/11/news-briefs-11262008/ News Briefs 11/26/2008 : Equal Marriage Now – Your Information Resource For Marriage Equality / Same-Sex Marriage / Gay Marriage

    [...] Op-Ed: Feminism and the three arguments against gay marriage, Time, Michael Scherer. [...]

  • palininatowel

    effedup,
    .
    I have bad news for you. Gay marriage will happen whether you want it or not in the next 10 years except for, perhaps, states like Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Kansas and Arkansas.
    .
    A vast majority of young people today don’t care that someone is gay. And as this generational shift takes place, the fight for gay marriage will have been won.
    .
    You’ll still have your red states!

  • redambrosia99

    The gay rights movement has everything to do with feminism. Feminism is about eliminating SEXISM (among other things), which is all about stereotypes of gender roles. The ultimate end of feminism would be a society in which a person, male, female, black, white, purple, green, w/e, is able to freely express their TRUE IDENTITY without fear of violence, rejection, censure, etc.

    That is what an equitable society would be like.

  • mrtoads

    Nicely done, E.! You’ve managed to mimic the wildly ignorant and confused argument process of all too many of us to a T. Personally, I’m a conservative, and when I learned that the Church had stopped using temple prostitutes, I turned my back on organized religion. Give me that old time religion. And let me have multiple wives, darn it! It’s what God intended!

  • pspiv

    The reason I believe so many people think gay marriages threaten straight marriages is because there are a lot of people (perhaps a majority) who fall into the bisexual area of the continuum that stretches from totally hetero to totally homo. Although these closet bi’s suppress their homosexual feelings, they still feel that they need strong societal disapproval of gays to help control their suppressed urgings. They are afraid that if homosexuality is fully accepted in society, they will no longer be able to control their same-sex longings. As long as they are too embarrassed to show their gay side, they stay in their opposite-sex marriage. But they are afraid, though they cannot admit it to themselves, that they would abandon their opposite-sex marriage if gay marriage were equally acceptable.

  • joyomama

    I am going to completely ignore the post from the appropriately named “effedup”.

    Instead, I’d like to offer my own take on the free exercise of relgion as it pertains to Prop 8. My religion (Unitarian Universalist, one of the oldest denominations in the US) has been ordaining women since the 19th century and openly gay ministers since the 1970s. We’ve been at the forefront of the marriage equality movement; the plaintiffs in the Massachusetts case were UU’s and they were married by the president of the UUA, Rev. Bill Sinkford.

    In my opinion, weddings — like other religious sacraments — are protected by the 1st Amendment. The civil aspect of those sacraments (birth certificates and marriage licenses, for example) are governed by secular law, and every citizen is guaranteed equal protection under secular law. If a faith community wants to perform infant baptism, same-sex weddings or funeral masses, it is their constitutionally-guaranteed right to do so without government interference. Determining who can be legally certified as born, married or dead should be a totally secular matter.

  • effedup

    Gay marriage threatens the moral fabric of society. No wonder freakin america is messed up.

  • wingedwolfpsion

    What most people don’t realize is that this issue affects MORE people than they realize. It’s not only about ‘gays’. That is probably due to their lack of imagination, frankly. You see, it’s not true that there are only men and women. I know, shocking–but in rare cases, gender is not an obvious thing in human beings. Not gender-identity…but GENDER. These folks are called hermaphrodites. They really are both genders in one person, and have the parts of both. If marriage is ‘between a man and a woman’, then these people are also being barred from ever marrying. Now, we know that homosexuality is inherent as well, but hermaphroditism is pretty blatantly a birth defect. Why are you trying to take away someone’s right to marry due to a birth defect? There are also people out there who have XY chromosomes, but female bodies–not due to surgery, but due to a hormone resistance–they were born that way. Is that person a man or a woman? They’re both. They’re neither. Whom are they allowed to marry?

    All human beings should have equal rights–including the right to legally marry. This is not a Church state. I’m a heterosexual, and my family and children are not threatened by gay marriage. You cannot catch ‘gay’ by hearing about its existence. You would think the way these people talk, that as soon as gay marriage is legal, there’s going to be this huge surge in people ‘turning gay’ just because they’re allowed to marry now…that telling people it’s ok to be gay will make them leap at the opportunity. Makes you wonder about what is going on in their heads, doesn’t it? What is obvious, though, is that the anti gay marriage movement is led by hatred. And that should never be condoned by anyone.

  • textee

    Today, political advocacy group Time magazine again declares its support for what proponents call same-sex “marriage”. Best of all, political advocacy group Time magazine claims to identify the “arguments” against what proponents call same-sex “marriage”. Along the way, political advocacy group Time magazine falsely asserts: “No one has proposed teaching second graders about homosexuality.” ROTFLMAO!!!! The anti-family leftist lunatics running public schools (and adored by political advocacy groups like Time magazine) are not just indoctrinating other peoples’ children about their love for the agenda of the fundamentalist homosexualists, those lunatics are transporting other peoples’ children to same-sex so-called “weddings”.

    Check out this, you fools: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77734

    “A public school in San Francisco bused 18 first-graders to City Hall yesterday, so the youngsters could scatter rose petals in celebration of their lesbian teacher’s wedding.

    “The students, from Creative Arts Charter School, waited on the steps for their teacher with bags of pink rose petals, bottles of bubbles and, at least for some, with political buttons asking Californians to vote down Proposition 8, a ballot measure that seeks to define marriage in the state as a union between one man and one woman.”

    Also, Time magazine, the thinking community understands that you are completely incapable of identifying what “Republicans say”, so please also refrain from claiming what the “arguments” are of opponents of same-sex so-called “marriages”. You don’t know what the hell you are talking about, so please refrain from claiming to know what the pro-America community says.

  • keillrandor

    Marriage is a SOCIAL contract of HUMAN creation… (Just like religion is a social structure of human creation).

    The problem, is that there are many people who do not understand, or even WANT to understand and/or acknowledge that this is true. Why?

    FEAR…

    Lots of people, from now until the dawn of time are afraid of change, and as such, are very immature and insecure. Unfortunately, if they are in the majority, then there’s not much that can be done right now…

  • sgwhiteinfla

    textee
    .
    Only a fool reads worldnetdaily which makes the National Inquirer look like a reputable newspaper. Get. A. Life!

  • http://purifyyourbride.stblogs.com/2008/11/26/gay-marriage/ Purify Your Bride » Blog Archive » Gay Marriage

    [...] a post about Gay Marriage from Michael Scherrer on Time magazine’s Swampland blog. His words are in [...]

  • effedup

    well wingedwolfpsion, your argument is as good as the current administration. there is no such thing as a genderless human being. Acknowledged that there are hermaphroditic birth defects. Mind you the term hermaphrodite is used to describe ambiguous genitalia, it has nothing to do with personality. So that person can be a female who has male genitalia in which case she can have it removed and live as a normal woman, marrying a man and so forth. Now i can expressly state that homosexuality is a behavioral defect. NO person is born a homosexual!! Homosexuality is learnt and any society that promotes it has lost its moral compass. This has nothing to do with hating homos, they are human beings as well. only sexually perverted

  • formerlyjames

    Let’s not split hairs here. The whole issue is religion. Religion invented the concept of marriage thousands of years ago. Even though the sexual orientation of Jesus, Paul, and the gang are suspect to me, monogamous sexual activity between man and woman was supported by the religions, since people were not going to abstain from sex, which was preferred by the religious zealots. The Christian leaders absolutely knew that the pleasures of the world would end any second, and to get to the place in the sky, no sex allowed.
    .
    Now, however, the world is still here, and the civil world has long ago adopted the warped ideas of the religions. The problem is, in democracyland, which didn’t exist when marriage was invented, special favors are granted to people to marry. Legal and financial favors. The homo queers not only want part of that pie, they want an end to discremination overall, and acceptance as human equals.
    .
    Simple. Go with antiquated ideas from thousands of years ago, or advance democracy and civilization now here.

  • formerlyjames

    adendum. Keep the religious ceremony, but don’t hold it universal. Separate civil and religious unions. All offical unions should be civillly, secularily, sanctioned. Hetro or homo.
    .
    I was going to go on a vile, foul mouthed tirade on effedup, but hold my tongue. Forgive him, Lord, for he knows not what he speaks.

  • trollybaz

    I would beg to differ with Rodriguez’ analysis of the motive behind the church’s opposition to gay marriage. It has nothing to deal with male dominance or any sort of dominance. From the church’s perspective, it has everything to deal with fidelity to what the church considers moral law.

    My fundamental issue with gay marriage is that it redefines marriage. If the state can regulate incest and polygamy, why can’t gay marriage be similarly prohibited? I certainly don’t know anybody who hates an incestuous people, but neither do I personally know anybody who thinks its a good idea. Can someone explain the difference to me?

  • formerlyjames

    trollybaz, if you didn’t post a reasonable, rational question, I would not answer, but since your approach is so unChristian like in being civil, here goes.

    .

    You view the issue of marriage (I prefer the term civil union) with a broad brush. It is a favored argument to speak of homo unions between adults as the same, or leading to, forms of sexual expression which are not on the table, or part of the discussion. The issue at present is the union of love between 2 adults of the same gender. Not beastiality, not incest, not forms of sexual activity which we won’t even go into.
    .
    Knowing that will not resolve your discomfort, I tried.

  • http://www.gayvegas.net/gay-families/adoption-fostering/fight-gay-adoption-heats/ The Fight Over Gay Adoption Heats Up |

    [...] But despite the similarities in tactics, the fight over gay adoption won’t necessarily be a repeat of the anti-gay-marriage campaign. Chrisler and others contend that the arguments against gay adoption will be more difficult to make than those against gay marriage. “It’s not nearly as divisive an issue as the definition of marriage,” she says. “For the most part, people think of adoption and foster-parenting as children’s issues. What’s best for the child?” [...]

  • jaquebauer

    This movement by the Queers, gays lesbos or whatever they want to be called must be stopped by all means necessary. These are mutants of the animal kingdom. They are an evolutionary fart.

    This country is decaying on all fronts. They say all new trends start in California….well it must be stopped there. Look at what has happened to San Francisco….and ask yourself….if that were my city, would I want to raise my kids there ????

    Once they were little people in the closet. Then they came out and flaunted their lifestyle. Guess who brought AIDS to the USA. Guess who keeps the AIDS virus alive ? Its the Butt F*ckE*rs of their clan.

    I propose internmant camps for the infected…why should america pay for the healthcare of those whose lifestyle promotes the transmission of this terrible disease.

    Enough said.

  • http://politicalhindsight.wordpress.com/2008/11/27/gay-marriage-arguments/ Gay Marriage Arguments « Political Hindsight

    [...] at 7:00 am · Filed under culture ·Tagged gay marriage Michael Scherer lists out the three arguments against gay marriage used by anti-gay marriage advocates. Only the first argument is intellectually honest because it [...]

  • jennofark

    Really, the “three arguments” you cite can be boiled down to one umbrella statement, which was very alike the opposition to civil and voting rights for both women and African Americans. That statement is: “We don’t like X group and don’t think X group should have the same rights we do; therefore, because there are more of us than there are of group X (and/or because we have the power to do so), we will make sure that group X will remain second-class citizens under the law.”

    That’s really all there is to it. Everything else is a sham cover argument, including “GOD doesn’t like group X.” Well, since GOD has never stepped down from on high to amend the constitution in this country to explicitly state that it’s ok for the majority to deny rights to the minority simply because they want to, GOD doesn’t enter into it at all. Besides, Christ said “Love thy neighbor,” not “Love thy neighbor – unless he’s a fag.” What I find most deliciously ironic about the religious argument is that it’s based on the assumption that this GOD that these folks are claiming to protect must be in fact a very puny being, if he can’t be counted upon to dole out appropriate punishment for transgressions against him at the time he finds most suitable. Any god that needs your help to impose judgement isn’t one worth following, since he’s less powerful than your average human being.

    Second, in response to effedup, who is indeed true to his moniker: “NO person is born a homosexual!! Homosexuality is learnt and any society that promotes it has lost its moral compass.”

    You know, I think I agree that it’s quite possible or even likely that homosexuality is not a genetic trait. But guess what? That’s not supposed to matter in a country based on the idea that all of us are supposed to be able to freely seek “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” To you, “happiness” may be your monthly issue of Cat Fancier magazine. To your neighbor Bob, it may be marrying the man of his dreams. As long as Bob pursuing his happiness isn’t stopping you from reading your Cat Fancier, it’s really none of your dang business how he defines or fulfills his own personal pursuit of happiness, regardless of how odd you may find his predilictions. Besides, dude, reading Cat Fancier is WAY gayer than marrying someone of the same sex.

  • http://manerasdevivir.wordpress.com txominmujika

    My goodness, jaquebauer, are you being serious?
    Apart from the fact that you can’t even write properly (“internmant camps”? what are those?), your arguments are ridiculous.
    Blaming gay people for keeping AIDS around is as stupid as it is undocumented. Don’t heterosexual people have un-protected sex? Don’t heterosexual people become heroin addicts as well?
    You could also look back into Africa, and ask who it is that refuses to give out condomns to African men, thus extending the problem of AIDS even further. It is, strangely enough, those religious men and women who go there to ‘help’ but really only add to the problem.
    Apart from my answer to jaquebauer, I wanted to add quite an interesting fact about gay marriage.
    In Spain, which is where I come from, a law to allow gay marriages was passed in the year 2005. In these 3 years, we have had time to see how only 0,9% of gay couples divorced, whereas the percentage of heterosexual couples that decided to end their marriage was of over 5%. This means that some of the main opponents of gay rights, who hate both gay marriage and overall divorce, now see how gay people are less prone to divorce. What a moral dilemma!

  • http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=1191832308&ref=name Shakespeare in GA

    I’m way behind the curve on this post, but my two cents’:
    .
    Over Thanksgiving, my wife and I had a frank discussion with my parents about this very topic. My wife and I are left-of-center politically, especially on the social front and voted for Obama. My parents are right-of-center politically, although more moderate socially, and voted for McCain. The differences came down to terminology, in a sense. Both of my parents are for civil unions for homosexuals but against marriage, especially my father who believes, based on his Presbyterian upbringing, that marriage is between a man and a woman. My mother however understands the argument against this, namely why the federal government should be able to determine who should marry. (Of course, society should regulate certain limitations, such as marriages that are incestuous or non-consensual or between partners who are not of an age to marry.)
    .
    That a church would want to define “marriage” makes absolute sense to me–marriage is part of a religious creed and therefore the right of that religious institution to regulate. That the federal government should do this makes as little sense as it did to regulate marriages between people of difference races or ethnicities. My marriage to a woman is no less valued or important because two men or two women wish to marry. As a father of two young boys, I have wondered how to talk to them about homosexuality and have frankly worried about it, but then again I have to worry about having the basic sex talk and the drug talk, etc. It’s part of the territory as a father and I’ll have to deal with it at some point.
    .
    Bottom line: “everything goes” is probably not the best way to run a society, but neither is narrowly interpreting a loving union between two consenting adults.

  • http://manerasdevivir.wordpress.com txominmujika

    Yes, I understand how it is all a question of definitions, if you look at it closely.
    But my problem is not with the people who do not like the term “same-sex marriage” because marriage is a religious word restricted to a man and a woman. What is unacceptable is a large sector of society that believes that when two men love each other, they are some kind of diseased, mutant persons. And although I agree that same sex marriage can be seen as ‘terminology problem’, many of the anti-gay marriage campaigners just use this campaign as a way to hide their real, dangerous opinions about homosexual people.

  • clarencex11

    You have all been brainwashed by the left-wing sodomite media. Do you think homosexuality is NORMAL? Do you really think so, or is that what the New York Times has told you to believe?
    Of course it is not normal! If we were all gay, humanity would not survive! This is not a question of “definitions” or “freedom”, it is a question of survival. And you might find no interest in the survival of the human race, but I do, and I will do all that’s in my hands to protect humanity!

  • dock2

    Scherer has greatly oversimplified and distorted arguments against gay marriage, ignoring some very important ones and thereby not really acknowledging that there are truly serious implications in redefining marriage. He misses the central point that replacing “mother and father” in marriage law with “spouse and spouse” — or “Party A” and “Party B” as Mass. marriage licenses now call it — introduces enormous distortions and penalties into the law that actually handicap gay couples rather than strengthen them. And to say, as Andrew Sullivan has, that marriage no longer is about creating the next generation, but is instead about “a way in which two adults affirm their emotional commitment to one another” is to introduce into marriage law the very novel and previously nonexistent legal concept that emotional commitment between consenting adults is sufficient reason for getting married. I have an emotional commitment to my sister — does that mean I can marry her? Why not? The issue here isn’t whether lots of sisters and brothers will rush to marry, but that they could, and not a single advocate of same-sex marriage can logically oppose it. Gay marriage was barely conceivable two generations ago; why can’t parent/adult child marriages be next?

    By such twisting and redefining of the words that express our social institutions, we change the institutions themselves, and that is no small thing carried out lightly. It defies both common sense and law to argue that same-sex and opposite-sex relationships are really no different from each other when the latter in fact are the only ones capable of creating babies specifically connected to their mother and father. If biology no longer counts, then it should not matter to sever the bonds of biological parent and child. As the father of three adopted and two biological children, with a stepchild thrown in for good measure, I know the meaning of loving children who enter a family through different pathways.

    In the end, the massive public opposition to gay marriage, expressed over and over again in one referendum after another, cannot be dismissed as blind prejudice and religious bigotry — themselves just convenient bogeymen to explain away these huge and consistent majorities and defeat them in the courts. It reflects serious concern among a lot of thoughtful and decent people that if society really does need a social institution, enshrined in the law, to manage opposite-sex attractions in the interest of children and society, then redefining it to include same-sex couples on the basis of their “emotional commitment” to each other only is an extremely risky transformation not to be taken lightly.

  • ksmgdby91

    clarencex11,
    Who are you to define normal? I’m pretty sure there is no such thing. If you aren’t gay, well then don’t marry somebody of the same sex as you, you have no right to say who deserves rights and who does not. Yes, biologically male and female are designed to reproduce, but we live in a time where we can make children in test tubes, so what’s the problem? The human race will survive.

    The 14th Amendment states that the government cannot “deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” Which means, that it is unconstitutional to prevent homosexuals from marrying. People argue that the sanctity of marriage will diminish, almost like it has with the increasing divorce rate?

    I would like to know who gave people the right to say that one group of people are not worthy of the same rights as another, that is discrimination and there is no way around that. It is not different from prohibiting inter-racial marriages, or any form of discrimination. The government cannot deny homosexuals the right to marry, and if an individual has a problem with it, they can avoid it. Religion is a poor excuse for denying the basic rights of a person, if our country was a christian state in law then maybe religion would have an arguement. But we’re not therefore it doesn’t.

    People need to get over the fact that no one is the same, accept change and move on. Stop hating diversity, it’s how the world flourishes.

  • http://manerasdevivir.wordpress.com txominmujika

    That is a very strong argument by ksmgdby91, but I am afraid it will still be impossible for a great sector of American society to accept that their country is changing, and so arer their sons, daughters, neighbours and almost everyone they know. Maybe we are not doing properly. Maybe the education given to children, both at school and at home, is not good enough to make them accept gay people – the same goes to almost any excluded minority. Writing from a European country where homosexuality is not a problem, and gay marriage was solved a long time ago, I have no doubt that the problem in this issue is education. We can only hope for the next generations to understand this problem better than Twentieth Century people.

  • ksmgdby91

    i agree with you, i think education is key to understanding and accepting the differences that make our world such an amazing place. lack of education is what creates fear and hate, fear towards the unknown and unfamiliar and hatred towards anything that threatens the “correct” order. hopefully america will overcome its differences again, like it did in the 60s and 70s and hopefully one day people will stop fearing the unknown.

blog comments powered by Disqus