Home Alone

KT,
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I think the most underplayed story has been the absence of Bush. He’s still the President, but he is practically invisible to the public at large. Is anyone guiding the ship?

bryanfromhouston: Bush is still around, he’s just the “invisible” Chevy Malibu commercials that were on TV in 2007.
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KT please free my Joe Pyne post in the other thread.

My contribution is: Mark Halperin is a suck up to the right and the right still hates (no loathes him) and does not trust him. He is a major tool that should be interning at the Drudge report so he can learn the proper way to be wrong.
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If this, by some medical miracle or space aged advancement in science makes it into that thick skull of yours Mark. The next time you go on Morning Joe to suck up, remember Joe can’t stand you even though he smiles in your pasty needy face.
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Was that too harsh?

KT here–

Bryan: Bush gave a news conference with Paulson this morning. Andy: Are you in moderation? I thought we had fixed that.

my posts disappear completely some times. Like I have never submitted them. Happen to me twice today.

My posts disappear completely sometimes. Happen twice today.

Are you at all interested in Nancy Pfotenhauer-based science fiction?

Here’s a topic for discussion that is particularly relevant to Time:
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Does Mark Halperin consider himself to be a “journalist?’ Does Time consider him to be a “journalist” or a “blogger?” If it’s the latter, are the standards for fact-checking, basic reporting and journalistic ethics the same or different for bloggers versus reporters?
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I found Halperin’s criticisms of election coverage (“disgusting” “biased”) to be curious and, yes, hypocritical, given what he chose to highlight on The Page on a daily basis during the primaries and general.
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For example, was Halperin’s continual citing of Drudge as a source “biased” (even “disgusting”), particularly when he never cited online, left-leaning news sites such as TPM?
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Questions worth discussing…

KT: Groucho woud probably have a comeback for the: Are you in moderation question. I’ve had some links that I attached kick me out.
I wasn’t using potty mouth…honest!

I like this story from the NYTimes. It’s about the first all girl rock band in Saudi Arabia. They have to hide their identities and can’t be photographed, but their music is getting a lot of attention.

“In Saudi, yes, it’s a challenge,” said the group’s lead singer, Lamia, who has piercings on her left eyebrow and beneath her bottom lip. (Like other band members, she gave only her first name.) “Maybe we’re crazy. But we wanted to do something different.”

ghostlawns: Sounds like they’re destined for radio airplay.

KT,
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I guess what I mean is that he appears to be just going through the motions. I don’t think he really wants to be President anymore, and IT SHOWS!!! I think he liked the idea when he could just be the Decider, but on domestic issues, (it may be the entire Republican party) there is a palpable fear or uncertainty in the air.
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It’s like there is a bomb set to blow, and he has no idea how to defuse it so he just sits tight, tells everybody it’s important to understand that defusing is the first step, and then he sits on his hands waiting on the bomb squad.

Hi, KT! What, no picture of you with your hands on either side of your face, screaming in disbelief and horror, a la Macauley Culkin in the movie? You disappoint me!

That said, I’m still gunning for a thread where we can focus on NCLB and the state of our educational system. I’d really love to hear what the other Swamplanders think, and this is also an area where I could actually add something myself.

Thanks!

I second palininatowel’s suggestion.
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Also, I can always stand to hear more about how we’ve put a worthless fool in charge of $700 billion:
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/11/21/paulson-stabilized/
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Suggested headline? “Commentor Cliff Calls Paulson Worthless Fool.”
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Now back to racking my brains for guest week.

pourme: Yes – what planet is she from?

I also second Suzie in MD’s suggestion.

I’m still trying to figure out why nobody seems to be blinking an eye at thowing money at Citicorp but the idea of providing the same consideration for auto manufacturers seems to give everyone the vapors. Am I alone in thinking that much more ‘value added’ activity takes place around factories than banks? Am I the only one concerned that an economy based on shuffling paper around is no economy at all?

Bush is a nonentity at this point. The lamest lame duck in the history of lame ducks.
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Did everyone see this video of Bush walking on stage at G20? The rest of the world’s leaders ignore him like he is invisible or has leprosy.
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It is sad — and dangerous — for this nation to have a president who is such a non-entity.

KT here–

Suzie, Cliff: Send me a couple of paragraphs.

KT – Any insight into Obama’s stand on legalizing industrial hemp? Just sayin… it would support the economy and the environmental movement.

Cliff: We’ve had a worthless fool in charge of our country for the last 8 years.
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Paul Dirks: I’m with you. BTW Citi should withdraw it’s 400 million dollar sponsorship of the NY Mets new baseball stadium..
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Suzie in MD: Either fully fund NCLB or repeal it.

I am going a totally different rout than my fellow Swamplanders. I fully endorse posts about NCLB and the Citicorp bail out. But I would also LOVE to see a post about this guy in hopes that SNL will sign him up to do Obama for the next four years. They are looking for someone to replace the other guy who sucked this you tube guy is pretty dang good. I know I know this is the height of fluff on my part but after months of super serious posts for the most part I would just like some fluff in the mix too. And not the kind that Scherer usually specializes in!
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Underplayed story is the anger and disillusionment from the Left concerning Obama’s Clintonista-heavy White House and cabinet, and the decidedly centrist shift in his proposals now that he’s president-elect. He’s hardly the aggressive “socialist” the Right Wing portrayed him as. So far…

http://www.political-buzz.com/

palininatowel
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In the interest of fairness that video has been somewhat debunked by another video showing all of the leaders at the G20 shaking Bush’s hand individually for photo ops right before the big group picture on the video you linked. By the way I threw up in my mouth a little defending Bush just then.

You’ve got me thinking now. Conservatives often point to European countries, such as France and Sweden, and say, “We don’t want what they have there, right? Darn socialists! Elect Democrats and that’s what you’ll get!”

Here’s what I don’t understand. My husband just immigrated from Sweden about three years ago, and to hear him tell it, things are going pretty well there (or at least they WERE, until the U.S. economy started dragging down Europe’s as well). Few homeless (and those only by choice), free health care for all, generous parental leave, free education through college, thriving civil rights…what exactly am I missing here? What exactly are conservatives pointing to as so awful, other than the very notion of “big government”?
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And, perhaps more interestingly, assuming that we tried to get the same type of government here (which we won’t, but indulge me), what would be the logistical difficulties of transporting that type of government to the U.S. and its huge and heterogeneous population? In other word, given the political will, could we actually become Sweden writ large? If so, how? If not, why not?

It’s um, my cousin who wrote it, and it’s a trilogy set coincidentally in my home town and an all-girl planet known as Pfoten-5. The protagonist is a dashing married, middle-aged man with two boys who, because of his awesomeness, must save the world from domination by Nancy Pfotenhauer — but only after two 500-page volumes of blowing stuff up and making out and whatnot. That’s just an outline, really.

KT-
I think an interesting story is how national security is currently being driven my Brent Scowcroft. When and how did he get into the inner circle? Is he behind Obama’s tacking to the right in foreign policy? Was he advising Obama to keep Gates at Defense and Hillary at State? And what happened to Sam Nunn? Early on he was rumored on the list for VP, but nothing since then.
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Please don’t ask me for paragraphs. I only have questions, no answers.

KT-
I think an interesting story is how national security is currently being driven by Brent Scowcroft. When and how did he get into the inner circle? Is he behind Obama’s tacking to the right in foreign policy? Was he advising Obama to keep Gates at Defense and Hillary at State? And what happened to Sam Nunn? Early on he was rumored on the list for VP, but nothing since then.
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Please don’t ask me for paragraphs. I only have questions, no answers.

KT, I will do some research into it, since spouting off unsupported opinion is only for worthless fool commentors like myself.
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I can also try to get perspectives from two elementary school teachers I know here in Phoenix, if you’d think that would be worthwhile. (They’d probably also touch on immigration issues, since the two are conflated in our schools.)

Pourme’s cousin so deserves a book deal more than Palin.

I’m still confused by people who think Obama is tacking to the right or are disappointed that he’s manning his cabinet with insiders. I don’t perceive this as being a shift at all. Am I now to assume that while the McCain campaign was busy calling Obama a socialist, blame-America-first bleeding heart welfare giveaway redistributionist, all the socialist, blame-America-first bleeding heart welfare giveaway redistributionists believed them?

Suzie — the fundamental difference can be explained by the simple fact that fiscal conservatives never learned to share.
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They don’t want to pay taxes unless its for the military because they always want to have the biggest gun on the block — probably a left over from when they were given wedgies from the jocks in high school.
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The thought that t axes could be used to help other drives them nuts, they still prefer that poor people starve than have food stamps, old people dies instead of having social security and welfare need we go there.
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Social conservatives – just want to control everything-probably a left over from the days when they were in charge of the bake sale and the spring dance committee.
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The only thing they seemed conservative value they seem to care about is controlling the sex lives of others – through contraception, abortion and gay civil rights.

Let’s see, Sweden has a population of roughly 9 million – roughly the size of North Carolina – with a tax rate substantially higher than the U.S. It may be easier for them to afford free health and free education.

Not to mention Sweden is more more socially and culturally heterogeneous that the United States ever thought about being. And has the political will, etc.

I don’t see how a Swedish or European socialism would work in the U.S. The parts just don’t fit. The question may better be what will the US do now? Deregulation really worked out well, didn’t it? How much of our financial and industrial sectors can the government support? With health care costs and insurance escalating at unconscionable rates, I don’t see how we can not have a workable form of universal health care paid by the government. But will we?

Like others, I have more questions than answers.

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KT: Anarchy in the Swamp!
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Having a hard time seeing that as being different from most other days, Karen…
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Anyhow, my linky comes from Steve Benen over at The Washington Monthly, and it has a little something to do with US eavesdropping on, of all people, Tony Blair and Iraq’s first interim president, Ghazi al-Yawer.
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Me, I’m wondering if a few columnits would care to rethink their positions on government surveillance. I’d link to the Klein article instead, but it’s no longer available.

KT – There was an interesting opinion piece that Sally Quinn did Sunday that invited the Obama to join her church the National Cathedral. The chief selling points was that it was interfaith and the opposite of what he was used to at Rev. Wright’s. As an African American how much of Obama’s culture will America tolerate?
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The black church is more than a house of worship, its is often the only sanctioned environment for celebrating uniquely black culture, including but not limited to the gospel choir. — If Sally Quinn who right so much about religion could dismiss this most critical element – how much of the black culture do the msm this should be easy for Obama to jettison for the sake of unity.
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I also ask this in the context of the newsweek article today about how Michele Obama is a real role model for American womanhood.

Dee, I disagree. Conservatives don’t want to pay taxes. Period. That’s for chumps and the middle class. They earned their money the old fashioned way – hedge funds, real estate speculation or inheritance – and they should be able to spend it all on whatever they want.

I also liked the Saudi girl-rock story. Couldn’t find any Accolade tunes on any file “sharing” site, though

oops that should be — If Sally Quinn who writes so much about religion could dismiss this most critical element – how much of the black culture do the msm think should be easy for Obama to jettison for the sake of unity.
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preview is my friend

pourme:
Your cousin is Henry Darger?

Holiday in Cambodia!
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I think this one deserves wide distribution. The incoming RNC head had to resign from a country club that would not admit admit the president of the United States as a member, because of his excessive pigmentation.

What is wrong with me? Link:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_11/015797.php

I think it would be pretty fascinating if you did a post (from your own perspective) as to why pundits/journalists get so caught up in cliches and analysis that is pretty easily refutable. For instance, and I saw a post on this by James Fallows today, haven’t we heard enough of the phrase “Team of Rivals”? Why do seemingly very smart, thoughtful and engaging TV personalities continue to use that term? Is there no other frame of reference for the people that watch these shows? I think that James does a good job of giving at least 5 synonyms for the phrase. Another phrase that was way overused – The VP has to be the “attack dog.” Surely there’s another way to say it?

Going back and checking out the campaign coverage with some 20/20 glasses on, isn’t it evident that the idea that Barack Obama would not perform well with certain subsets of voters simply because he did not perform well with them in the Democratic primaries was simply wrong? I’m sure there are a myriad of reasons he performed better than many pundits predicted, but honestly, how can we look at an intra-party primary battle and then correlate those results with what might happen in a two party general election? This concept really began to bug me with about two weeks to go in the election…people were pointing to his supposedly sinking numbers in PA and saying “well, this makes sense, he couldn’t connect with those people in the primaries either..” It seemed to me to be an inaccurate way of attempting to read those numbers. Joe Scarborough, a guy that I actually really enjoy watching, was one of the biggest perpetrators of this myth.

Finally, and man has this turn into a treatise that I’m sure most people don’t even care to read, what are your thoughts on the idea that there was more inside baseball publicly discussed than ever before in this election? I’m not old enough to remember many details about any election other than 2004 but it did seem that process definitely dominated a lot of the news cycle in this election. Might that be due to the prevalence of process oriented blogs, etc.?

KT, here are some of the issues and questions I’d like to discuss with my fellow Swamplanders (some of whom are, like me, former teachers):
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While I fervently agree with Andy from MA’s point that NCLB is woefully underfunded, I am not entirely certain that simply giving more money to the schools is the complete solution here. Money alone doesn’t address the question of whether state standards created to meet the NCLB mandate encourage factoid-based thinking and “teaching to the test,” rather than initiating the sort of critical thinking and problem-solving skills that our students will need in our current economy and world.
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Money doesn’t solve the fact that students from poorer communities (such as the one in which I taught) frequently have less support from home, and often come to school with greater emotional and physical needs (hunger, sleepiness from working at night to support their families, etc.) than students in wealthier areas…yet all these students and their teachers are held to the same standards by NCLB.
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More money doesn’t solve the issue of teachers increasingly having to document everything they do to show effort toward meeting NCLB and AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress) standards, thus adding untold hours to their workdays.
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Money doesn’t address the fact that in some areas, teachers are being told that every U.S. history teacher should be teaching the same lesson at the same time in the same way all across the county, which doesn’t allow for flexibility to meet students’ needs and individual learning styles, much less flexibility for maximizing the effectiveness of a teacher’s individual teaching style. This sort of regimentation is the result of striving to meet AYP at struggling schools, and wanting to make sure all teachers are on the same page.
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Money doesn’t help teachers meet dozens of IEP (individual education plans) instructions that, while well-meant, seem to obligate only teachers–and not parents or the students themselves–to address students’ special needs.
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For all of those reasons and many more, I’m not sure money alone will stop the enormous turnover of teachers, most of whom quit within their first five years of teaching. I’m one of them, and it was never about the money for me. It was about the time, and the frustration of trying your best and always having more and more obligations to meet. I will tell you, though, some of those kids still haunt me. I think about them every day.
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So, my big questions are:
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1) Is NCLB fixable? If so, how?
2) If NCLB isn’t fixable, how do we hold teachers to reasonable standards?
3) How do we involve parents more in the education process?
4) If the educational system received more money, where should that money go?
5) Can the educational system really be completely improved without addressing poverty in many of our communities? (This, to me, is the underlying cause of many problems in our schools.)
6) What role could and should teachers’ unions play in the improvement of our schools?
7) What role should the voucher system play in the revamping of American schools? Are they a good idea, or will they draw needed resources from struggling schools who most need money and support?
8) What are other issues in our educational system that need to be addressed?
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Just a few thoughts. Thanks. I’ll stop ranting now!

How many private jets does Citi own?
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Irony of this for me is Citi is my bank. I just moved some money from a commercial paper money market and into a citi CD. So it would be safe….

I had to look up Darger; had never heard of him. Sounds a little like A Confederacy of Dunces, one of my all-time favorite books which also came out of nowhere. I’m kidding of course. What I really want to write is one where W. pardons Marion Jones so she can run so fast that time goes backwards and he gets to be President all over again except I discover his plan and save the world with cool rayguns after making out with tons of smokin’ hot chicks. Again, in the early stages.

Yo, KT, maybe you could take advantage of this moment to slip an honest-to-god progressive into the Swamp. Not a slightly-left-of-Broder consensusist (with all do respect to Klein le moins mauvais qu’autrefois), but a real progressive who would challenge Conventional Cokie-ism and bring some balance to Mike Murphy, Amy The Godbotherer, Scherer’s weird fascination with Mitt Romney and his hair, and the shadow that nitwit Halperin casts on all things Time-related. You posted a long quote from Bob Reich up above, why not give the keys? Or someone who would actually bring a different, challenging POV to a mainstream media conversation.

I’m still confused by people who think Obama is tacking to the right or are disappointed that he’s manning his cabinet with insiders. I don’t perceive this as being a shift at all. Am I now to assume that while the McCain campaign was busy calling Obama a socialist, blame-America-first bleeding heart welfare giveaway redistributionist, all the socialist, blame-America-first bleeding heart welfare giveaway redistributionists believed them?
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Democrats are divided! The netroots are full of dirty hippies who want to have orgies, get stoned, and throw dollar bills onto the NYSE floor.
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And Commies!! Did I mention all the commies?
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And it’s not even noteworthy that the ranking minority member of the senate Energy committee doesn’t believe in global warming.
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Crazy!!

Dee
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Re: Shelby Steele from the other thread. How is he any different from Rush when he makes his living trying to undermine other black folks? What reason do you have for him writing a book carrying the subtitle “why Obama can’t win”? Just because black people have been doing it to each other for years doesn’t take away from the ridiculousness of it, and yes i know thats not a word!
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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/business/media/10book.html?_r=1

Okay, how did that smiley face make it into my post? Weird.
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davemc321,
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I am well aware of everything that you said about the differences between Sweden and here. As you may recall, I mentioned the huge population and demographic differences. And believe me, my husband has noticed that here in the U.S., 2/3 of his income no longer goes straight to the government.
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But I don’t really think you addressed my actual question. HOW do those population and demographic differences necessarily negate the possibility of a Swedish-style government here? “The parts just don’t fit” isn’t really an answer. What would be the SPECIFIC problems caused by our greater populations and heterogeneity? Could they be circumvented somehow? I’d love to see more actual discussion of the issue, rather than a kneejerk scoff in response to my question.
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That came across as snottier than I’d meant, but it felt like your response was rather dismissive and belittling. I am no expert, but I live with an actual Swede. I’m not ignorant of the differences between our two cultures.

Yo, KT, maybe you could take advantage of this moment to slip an honest-to-god progressive into the Swamp.
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Anarchy indeed.
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Well, since I nominated Pam Spaulding for Cabinet earlier this week, to represent the female LGBT black techie blogger demographic, which I guarantee you voted unanimously for Obama, except for one gal in Minneapolis who got all confused about Franken and Coleman, scattering ink randomly around the ballot, I’ll settle for this.
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What? Democrats – the part of unanimity – is divided? When, oh when, did this happen?

Suzie: Unfortunately, not being a teacher I don’t good answers about NCLB. But I did have an interesting conversation with my good friend who is a teacher in NYC and an active member of her union. The one point she wanted to make was that she thought the demonization of the union was very uncool; that an attack against the union was an attack against teachers. She also said that most teachers devote an extraordinary proportion of teaching time, up to 40%, for test preparation, and that that was detrimental to learning. Testing, of course, is a big part of NCLB, and testing in general is a terrible arbiter of teacher performance.
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We also talked briefly of the names being tossed around for Sec of Education. She was ok with Colin Powell (moot, because he won’t take the job) but she was vitriolically against Joel Klein, the former NYC super. Because of his strong stand against the teachers’ union, he is enemy #1.

suzie–
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That wasn’t really a thoughtful objection. Anything that scales to 10 million scales to 100 million. There is some basis to the homogeneity argument. As we’ve seen in some of the identity politics in the past week, there are tribal issues in the US that are much less pronounced in northern Europe. Inter-tribal conflict leads to distrust in distribution of government revenue.
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As you say, “The parts don’t fit” isn’t an argument. There really isn’t a good one, from a social perspective, except variations on Greed is Good.

I think what KT is offering is for the commentors to send her a blog to feature front page on Swampland, not suggestions or ideas. Send a blog she finds interesting and you get 15 min. or more of fame.

KT, since you are now officially a blogger (Congratulations ), take a look at this post over at KOS on the media’s penchant for ascribing attitudes and positions to the blogosphere that are often entirely wrong:
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Given that everything on Daily Kos is public, I’d like for Beth Fouhy and the AP to source exactly who and what they’re referring to. Because while we have a number of users who are opposed to the Clinton selection, the only people who represent the site are Markos and the other editors. It’s fine for them to quote diaries, of course, but they’re at least tasked with actually sourcing them. And as such, to use Daily Kos as a case study for opposition to the Clinton pick is extremely sloppy, inaccurate and misleading journalism – especially unsourced, as it is.
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You could use the Strawmen of Daily Kos post in it’s entirety (with permission) to engage in a conversation about why the msm keeps saying things about the blogosphere that are demonstrably untrue, and easily disproven.

I really feel a groove now, because I have a deadline to ignore. Idea 3: Henry Paulson has been sent from the future when ATM’s have become sentient beings and taken over the planet. He must kill me, because I will eventually lead the world on account of my coolness and sexiness. I lead a ragtag band of rebel supermodels to infiltrate the Treasury and kill Paulson in a currency cutting machine. Afterwards, we say catch phrases and do it.

Here’s another topic taken bodily from another blog, in this case Americablog: Those wacky Canadian socialists. This post would initiate that substantive and serious conversation about health care reform in America that you and I agree we should have.

Okay Suzie I have to stop you right here —
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Money doesn’t solve the fact that students from poorer communities (such as the one in which I taught) frequently have less support from home, and often come to school with greater emotional and physical needs (hunger, sleepiness from working at night to support their families, etc.)
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Yes I Know this is the standard meme used by school teachers and administrators — but we know empirically that this is not the problem and the fact that people keep perpetuating it is bothersome.
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1) The head start program proves that it can catch up to any difference in at home disadvantages, but of course a lack of funding prevents it from being universal.
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2) The Teach for America was founded precisely because the data showed that the biggest obstacle for economically disadvantages students was the lack of high quality teachers — whether its because of a bias towards low expectations or ineffective teachers strategies.
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I know its still popular to blame everything on the parents and in countless surveys the public thinks that engaged parents is what is needed most — but Teach for America has proved that by paying teachers over $130K per year gets the best and the brightest to come into the profession. Once that happens its just the day in and day out grunt work of getting it done with a belief system that at its core is that this is possible. Just look at what Michele Rhee in the DC school district — made a deal with the teachers to forgo union rules, offered them up to 142K I think and they are already starting to see results. and I suspect that in a few years when it is completely turned around folks will no longer say that poor minority students can’t learn like everyone else- which by the way they still teach in graduate education classes as a part of the diversity training.

“What exactly are conservatives pointing to as so awful, other than the very notion of “big government”?”

I don’t think they’re thinking about anything in particular, Suzie; I think most of this is simply knee-jerk, faith-based slogans handed down from the anti-FDR generation. There may have been some reasoning (amounting to “they’re trying to steal our money!”) 70 years ago, but the whole “socialist liberal marxist anti-Americans” formula has been nothing more than reflexive articles of faith for so long now that nobody on the right has really examined these claims, let alone defined them or searched for examples. It’s “booga-booga” politics.

KT, you are going to have to go Yoda here: “Write or write not – there is no try.”

No dismissiveness intended, Suzie. And I don’t know enough to belittle anyone. But you asked about the efficacy of a Swedish model in the U.S.

The small and homogeneous population of Sweden is, I believe, the reason it works there. I would suggest consensus is easier to find. Your husband may disagree.

Here, we don’t agree about much of anything. How to so something, how to pay for it and how to fix things that are broken. Which means our solutions are all about compromise of very disparate communities.

I don’t see how a European-style socialism will work here. A U.S-style might. What form that takes is open to discussion. How we approach national health insurance or some form of universal care may give us a clue.

Suzie brings up a ton of good points.
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Money alone won’t solve everything, but then again I keep hearing about school budgets getting cut, and schools having to drop programs like band, art, and shop so they can focus on NCLB requirements.
Here are some links:
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Schools expect budget cuts as economy sours
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23116409/
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Interesting sentence: “Among the most worried were board members from California, where Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger proposed more than $4 billion in cuts to schools.”
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http://www.nypost.com/seven/03052008/news/regionalnews/mayor_orders_3rd_cash_slash_100506.htm
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http://www.uft.org/news/issues/press/midyear_budget_cuts/
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I’ll try to dig something up about these secondary programs, but on the surface it’s worrying to me. Most kids probably don’t care about European history or John Steinbeck or grammar. The activities they do enjoy, that get them engaged, are getting cut so that we can make sure they fill in little ovals on a page correctly.
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Suzie makes another fantastic point about flexibility. My friend who is a second grade teacher (sorry, anecdotal evidence) has explained to me that essentially every minute of her day in the classroom has to be planned out to meet state and federal requirements. This strikes me as madness. It’s hell trying to get students of any age to act according to a schedule; with 2nd graders you get all the problems of little kids, too!

I just realized that Pam Spaulding may not be known to everyone. Her blog is here:

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/

She kicks butt. And is funny as the dickens.

jay
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There is a diary at the top of the dailykos at the moment exposing the shabby punditry trying to push the meme that “the blogosphere is outraged” about the Hillary pick for SOS. They pick the latest article like that apart because the author of the article a Beth Fouhy is claiming that the dailykos is in an uproar over Clinton pick.
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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/24/11290/520/364/665789

Speaking of critical thinking and education, and specifically directed to Suzie (good to see you back here girl!), our Oh Deer 2008 Environmental Forum on deer overpopulation is nearing its end and has gone well. As introduction to a broader topic of discussion on education, it is tremendously difficult to bring innovative programs into schools due to the NCLB focus that drives teaching to the test, and because many of the great things that happen in schools are driven by specific individuals and are rarely sustainable.

Dee,
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I think you may have misunderstood me a bit. I am not trying to somehow blame parents for the fact that many of them (those in my school, at least) had to work long, long hours to support their families, and did not have time to check their students’ homework or meet often with their teachers. I blame community poverty and lack of a living wage for that. And I certainly agree with the efficacy of Head Start and high wages for teachers as one way to increase student performance. But are you saying that parents don’t really have a significant role in determining student achievement? Surrounding children with educationally “rich” environments and experiences does, from what I understand, tend to correlate with academic success, as does parental guidance. No, it’s the only or even the main issue at hand, but I think it’s one. And I don’t blame that issue on most parents–I blame it on how our country treats our working poor.

Huh. If there was ever a thread where you’d expect to find Ohg or the Boredom Project…
And where’s Rusty? He always has such helpful suggestions.

Idea 4: While in Alaska for a snowmachine race, I discover that Sarah Palin is conspiring with Putin to steal trillions in oil profits. I am tipped off by Putin’s Interior Minister/Underwear Model, the lovely Svelte Oilnikova. After crushing Todd Palin in the race and having naked fun with Alexandra, I expose the fraud of Palin and Putin. The recovered money saves the economy but I am totally cool about it because that’s how I roll.

NO I didn’t misunderstand you — I am saying you are wrong. Poor and minority so called disadvantages students can learn just as well as anyone else if the right teachers are in the classroom with the right support fro administrators. Teach for America has proven this in numerous minority low-income communities and when Rhee has a little longer in DC it will be proved writ large and then never again we will say statements like we have to be flexible because disadvantage students can’t learn at the same pace.
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One of the biggest problems facing school systems is teacher bias. the low expectations for student becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And in the few experiments that have been undertaken where low-expectations are driven out of the system children perform.
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In too many teaching graduate programs teachers are taught as part of the diversity training that minority students are disadvantaged so they may not be able to perform like other students and so the lessons have been dumbed down for them. They fail because they are being set up to fail. and n matter how you sugar coat no one seemed to question your statement. everyone took it as a fact that because of poverty these children are behind. yes they are poor but its because of low expectations that failed education.
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I hate to jump all over you but the damage this kind of thinking is doing to poor and minority children is horrendous. If you question unions you are anti-teacher – but the truth of the matter is that the problem is not the difficulty of getting rid of bad teachers, the problems is getting outstanding teachers to enter and once there to stay in the profession.
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Please don’t think I am anti-teachers because I ma not there are plenty of fine individuals in the profession who are as hamstrung by doing things the way they have always been done and I am not saying that NCLB is great because while you need mechanism to gage improvement their ought to be more than one indicator otherwise you have teach to the test syndrome.
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Being people able to put teachers anywhere you need them regardless of seniority, being able to extend hours, being able to get rid of those who are not effective immediately is just the first step — and in DC to get the 142K starting salary they were willing to give up tenure and all the rest of it — and its the students who are benefiting already.

KT
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You could do a profile of the first bonafide progressive named to Obama’s staff. The “angry librul blogosphere” has been appeased!
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http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/11/melody_barnes_to_run_domestic_policy_council.php

Dee
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As a product of two teachers and being a member of a family that features educators on all levels including an Assistant Superintendent of Schools for Memphis City School Systems and a also a former Dean of Mathmatics for Jackson State University I am pretty well versed on educational issues and while much of what you say is true, Suzie is also right that the home environment makes a HUGE difference. Teachers have a finite amount of time to make a difference in a child’s life. They can do juggling and magic tricks while rapping like Jay Z over a mozart ballad and it still won’t make a sh!tting bit of difference if those kids go home to an environment of neglect or an environment of violence. Kids who come out of poor neighborhoods with little to no parental supervision and interaction and actually make it academically no matter who is doing the teaching are always going to be the exception and not the rule. I watched as my mom went above and beyond donating her time before and after school for kids who she knew needed help and werent getting it at home and still sooner or later most of them either dropped out, gave up, or did just good enough to make it out but never reached their full potential. My mom would be so frustrated by this and many times she wanted to just go and jack these kids’ parents up and smack some sense into them. But in the end her power began and ended at the school house and she had to accept that. It will NEVER just be about the quality of teaching and even Obama has acknowledged that over and over in his speeches. A teacher can’t make sure a kid does their homework, nor can a teacher turn off the video games and the ipods. Thats something that parents have to do for their kids and if they are having to work 2 jobs just to get by chances are they will not be able to get that done. Of course there are some that have every opportunity in the world to do it but they still decline to help their kids. Ultimately there has to be a partnership between the parents and the educators if you want to give a child the best opportunity to succeed. Thats my informed opinon on the matter.

Wow, sg really beat me to the punch there.
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It is literally inconceivable that a student’s home and social life has no impact on their learning. Beyond even their parents, their neighborhoods determine, to a great deal, how they do in school.
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I went to two high schools. One high school was in my tiny little impoverished hometown. A lot of students did well, but a lot of them came from families that didn’t give a rat’s ass about education and so they didn’t either – and now a lot of them are still stuck in that tiny town, or in that region of the state. A lot of the girls had kids within years of graduation.
The next high school was in the wealthy ski town fifty miles away. And while a lot of the kids were stoners, the bulk of them went to at least state school, and are now spread out across the country.
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Culture matters. It can be accounted for, to a certain extent, but its impact can’t be erased.

Pourme, it strikes me that your story would best framed as a graphic novel. It would really enhance the character development of Ms. Oilnikova, for one.

Dee,

I taught in a school where well over half the kids there were eligible for free and reduced lunch. I took an AP U.S. History program that used to have 30 kids, max, pretty much all white, and grew it into 128 kids who represented the racial demographics of the school. I supported every one of those kids, no matter how they looked, and no matter how poor they were. I asked the exact same effort and results from them as I expected from my (scarce) rich, white kids. I was not somehow looking down on my kids because they were disadvantaged or expecting less from them. But the pure fact of the matter is that if you’re working at Wendy’s from 3 p.m. till after midnight every school night to help support your family, and then trying to do homework, you won’t do as good a job on that homework as you otherwise would if you had more sleep and more time. If you don’t have enough to eat and your stomach hurts in class, you can’t concentrate as well.

Have you taught, Dee? Have you worked 60+ hours a week in an underprivileged school and tried your best to help kids who are starting behind all the others? Have you tried to get a child who reads at the second grade level to pass an 11th-grade standardized test? I understand that there are some bad teachers out there. But completely exonerating community poverty and parental neglect (willful or unavoidable) as one cause for lack of student achievement is shortsighted.

On education, one of the things that I miss about traveling a lot on business (there’s plenty I don’t, especially Atlanta) is airplane conversations.
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I had an airplane conversation once with a guy, college professor in economics, whose kids were in high school in Wellesley. a pricey Boston suburb. (Where, oddly enough, I coached the debate team for two years. One year the affirmative case we argued was for implementing HMOs.) He was active in school politics.
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He said the problem with education is simple, and not solvable. Schools deliver what parents want. Parents, in this guy’s experience, break down into those who want reliable daycare(40%), those who want their kids to get good grades for college (40%) and those who want their kids to get a good education (20%).
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The third group always loses. And hence driver’s ed.
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The deeper and more interesting problem is that there isn’t all that much to teach kids for their entire childhood and adolescence. We did the same thing in fifth grade that we did in third. Adding four columns of numbers is not harder than three. Enhanced reading comprehension comes from reading. Siting in a classroom does not enhance it, because it takes away your time reading (Yes, I confess, I had a book in my lap). Writing, on the other hand, is improved by practice.
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It is true that there is interesting stuff to learn about the way the world works (science) and how people have screwed up in the past (history). But you can find out about this stuff if you get the reading thing down.
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Math is harder. And there seems to be, once you get past calculus, a knack involved. There are insights into how the world works that requires math that requires that knack to get, because they are deeply counterintuitive.
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Jeez. Anarchy indeed.
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Back on point. The stuff that kids really do need to learn, reading, writing grammatically and basic arithmetic (not even algebra) is not hard to teach,and can be accomplished by age 16. The grammatical writing is the hardest part, because English is a sucky language in that regard.
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“School” is not about “education.” It is about socialization, about creating citizens who can sit on a factory floor for 4 hours at a time and not freak out.
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sheesh. No more coffee.

dave – I get a little bored after the pitch paragraph. I’m already on to Idea 5: Aliens have implanted a doomsday device in Wolf Blitzer’s beard. It will go off if he ever says something smart or even mildly interesting. I infiltrate the set, but spend most of my time chatting up Soledad O’Brien and Campbell Brown, who clearly dig me, because what’s the hurry — it’s not like Blitzer’s going to go King Solomon any time soon. I’m settling on “Derrick Drillnow” for my character’s name.

Dee, yes, and every child is above average.
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I don’t doubt the truth in what you say as far as – if we put really good teachers in every classroom and pay them really well, that we will have a better outcome in all settings. I also have no problem with removing poor teachers. But we also need to reduce the class size, improve administration, remove roadblocks to creativity, and also improve the home situation for at-risk students.
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My wife teaches in rural schools. Some kids come to school and it is the only place where they get a decent meal; for too many it’s the only place where they are safe. Many come from homes with no books, tee vees blaring 24/7, and no respect for education. The schools have too many permanent subs teaching classes they are not qualified to teach because they can’t find certified teachers to fit the slot. There are waves of teachers on the verge of retirement, and not nearly enough coming out of the schools to replace them. New teachers nationwide are more and more discovering that they would really rather do something else, thank you very much, and quitting the system in the first couple of years.
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One of the jokes in this state is when the State Board threatens to come take over a school system and replace everyone. yeah? With what.

pourmecoffee: Hell, Derrick Drillnow should be your screen name right now.

And then I read Dee’s thing about AP History.
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There is something else, of course. there is the learning how to learn thing. That is what college is about. that is what AP History or AP English is about. My AP History class was a disasters, a teacher reading aloud from Samuel Eliot Morrison. But my AP English class was great. That teacher tried to get us (painfully) to find means for understanding literature, for developing intellectual tools for dealing with new pieces of literature. The way he taught was not to transmit the plot points of Jude the Obscure, but to use it as a means to get us to understand how to read and analyze.
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This is also what business school is about. One finds some principles, and applies them. Simpler principles than the nature of human emotion, human failure. But same thing.

But we also need to reduce the class size, improve administration, remove roadblocks to creativity, and also improve the home situation for at-risk students.
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For what? What are your educational goals?
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For this discussion, I am adopting not devil’s advocate, but official PITA garb.
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I am not disputing your experience, what I am saying is that the perception is skewed because of a belief system that has low expectation for economically disadvantages students. If everything you say is a fact than how is it that teach for American is able to produce different results. They only operate in the most economically disadvantaged areas yet they are able to improve student performance with out changing thee children’s home environment.
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If what you are saying is true then we might as well pack it up and go home because unless poverty is wiped out these children will never be able to perform like their more affluent counterparts.
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No I have not spent 60 hours a week in the classroom but I come from a family of teachers, and when I sat in my grad school diversity class and was told that disadvantaged children can’t keep up I decided instead of teaching I would find out whether if what they were teaching teachers was the problem.
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I don’t blame you for looking at your experience the way you do because it is the majority belief and this debate has been going on since they came out with the Marva Collins story. Nevertheless, there are too many individual experiments that have concluded that regardless of home life, even though some of these kids live through the most horrendous things, perform at a much higher level when higher expectations are set for them.
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We have grown so comfortable with the stereo-type we forget that poor performance among minority and poor children was not always the default expectation.

[sigh]
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Public education serves two goals. 1) We are better off living in a literate society with people who share a common heritage and goals. the literacy part is important. But do keep in mind that American children are compelled to recite a loyalty oath, every day. 2)It protects children from irresponsible parents. There are parents who would have their children rag-picking rather than learning their letters. It is irresponsible for a society to permit this abuse of children.
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I claim there is a third goal in the American education system,and that is to habituate people to an industrial workplace, where they work in densely packed spaces and have to sit still for a long time. Evidence for this is the unnatural environment we jam 7 year olds into. Teaching anything to seven year olds is not facilitated by putting them into a narrow space and saying “Be quiet.”

Suzie–
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Check out this study. Obviously it is not the only thing out there but most of the thins i work on are proprietary and this is public. I don’t want you to think that I think that teachers are at fault or are all bad. I truly believe that teachers are the solution. They need to be paid as well as the average investment banker so only the truly gifted apply and get it. They need to be supported so that most of their time is not spent scrounging for resources. However most importantly — they aer not taught by people who train them to believe in false assumptions, once you assume something it is what you will see. In other words if the only problem any one points to is a rock then all problems look like rocks. The Teach for America difference is that these folks are highly educated but not in standard education courses.
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http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/Publications/PDFs/teach.pdf

This is the most fun we’ve had in Swampland since the pigs ate my little brother! Please, High Sheriffs, let the commenters run the asylum for a while.

Also, you’re not ever really going to fix this FUBAR format, are you? C’mon, you can tell us – there’s nobody else watching.

Dee,

You say, “regardless of home life, even though some of these kids live through the most horrendous things, [they] perform at a much higher level when higher expectations are set for them.” I agree. That’s exactly how I taught, and my students rose to meet the challenge for the most part. I didn’t treat my students differently or expect different things for them depending on their income. That’s not my contention. My argument is that the average level of achievement could be even higher for underprivileged kids if they had more support from their communities and if they didn’t live in such poverty. At the very least, it would be much less of a struggle for them to reach their potential. Can you agree with that much, at least?

Suzie got to go and get ready for a parent-teacher conference if you’re still on when I get back i would love to continue the discussion.

Dee
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No its not an all or nothing proposition. What needs to be acknowledged and addressed is that in order for kids in poor neighborhoods to reach their potential there needs to be outreach above and beyond just at school for those kids. Working poor parents should have the option of being able to send their child to free tutoring sessions or at least a structured environment where they can get help if they need it instead of having to make their kids go home as latchkey kids with no parental supervision. Head start is a perfect example of a program that isn’t actually a school per se but one that helps to give kids in lower income brackets the opportunity to get a helping hand in preparation for going to school. But there needs to be more done for kids AFTER they get into elemetary and middle schools to help them make up for the lack of support that they are getting at home. Again there were always be some kids that inspite of their home life will still find a way to succeed but unfortunately the truth is they will always be the exception because probably the most reliable predictor of student’s success no matter what the income level is parental involvement but when income level is factored in you see that the level of parental involvement on average tends to coincide with the family’s income level. Remember I said on average. Therefore while better teachers and better schools are definitely a part of the solution, better outreach for lower income students and working poor parents also needs to be part of that solution

Dee,

I skimmed the executive summary (have to go out shopping for Turkey Day soon, so I couldn’t read the whole thing). I think TFA is a great program, and the profile of the sort of teachers it produces is actually quite similar to how I came into the profession. I started teaching without a single education course, but was hired because 1) my school had unbelievable teacher turnover, and a warm body was required, and 2) I have an M.A. and a bit toward my doctorate in American history from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. They needed a U.S. history teacher, so they overlooked my initial lack of ed courses. I only ended up taking teaching courses during my second and third years of teaching, and (unfortunately) found them of little to no use.

So if your assumption is that I was somehow indoctrinated into an idea that underprivileged kids can’t achieve as well as rich kids through ed courses, you are mistaken. What you are hearing from me is not theory from a course, but battleground knowledge. I think–I hope–that I taught the way you would have wished me to teach, without regard to wealth or race in my expectations. But I still found that it’s tougher, but by no means impossible, for kids to achieve highly when not given the support they need from their communities and/or their parents. I am not really an ideologue, Dee. This is what I think from experience, not what I’ve been told by others.

Also, what sgwhite, Cliff, and wvng said.

Dee, I don’t think any of us are advocating making excuses for children from poor areas, or lowering expectations to make it easier for them to “succeed.” If anything, they need even more rigorous schooling to account for their deficiencies.
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What Suzie is saying, and I agree, is that teachers’ jobs will be made easier, and the quality of our educational system will be raised, if we address other social issues (ie inner city poverty, illegal immigration).

I was away for a while and come back to find an overwhelming exchange going. Too much to read. But I have a question for the techs…how to form paragraphs here to make the comments more readable?

Cliff, how did you do that?

formerlyjames
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you just put a period between paragraphs.

oh.

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thanks

sgwhite,

What do the members of your family in the education biz think about NCLB?

Suzie
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They think its bullsh!t on a bunch of levels the biggest one being that the standards usually implemented to grade different schools are based not on individual student’s improvement from year to year but improvement in say the 4th grade class from year to year meaning this year’s crop of 4th graders may jump up leaps and bounds in the 5th grade next year but the teachers won’t be judged by their success, they will be judged by the new crop of 4th graders’ success. Then of course there is the fact that its so woefully underfunded. They want teachers who will teach at a high level but they want to pay them like janitors. And then there is the problem of having to teach the test. No real educator ever wants to have to do that but because the teachers and schools are graded so heavily based on how the students do on standardized testing there is no way around not teaching the test. Again there are few if any concessions made for students who simply don’t do well on standardized tests either. My uncle who is the assistant superintendant of schools would much rather scrap NCLB and start all over creating a new system that holds school systems accountable for student achievement but judges achievement in more ways than just standardized test scores. And he is a proponent of actually giving teachers overtime pay so they can tutor after school for free instead of having to take second jobs unrelated to education just to try to pay their bills.

NCLB is a political gimmick. Political gimmicks don’t work in the real world. Simple. A 4th grader can understand that.

sgwhite,
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That “teaching to the test” issue just killed me. It meant that in my non-AP classes, I sometimes had to sacrifice work on critical thinking and reading to learn factoids (e.g., Andrew Jackson’s banking policy). I also had less time to teach topics that the students would find extremely interesting (e.g., Andrew Jackson’s role in the Trail of Tears). I could have tailored the curriculum to meet my students’ interests and needs much more effectively if I hadn’t been hobbled by a looming multiple-choice test.
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And hallelujah to the idea that student achievement means more than just scores on standardized tests!

Suzie, you know of course that standarized achievement tests have been around since the dinosours. The political gimmick of which I speak results in the “teaching to the test” syndrome. Nothing wrong in measuring achievement. That has been around as long as formal education systems. The politicians have only bastardized that positive and turned it into a matter of contention, and a negative.

Looks like Suzie got her education thread. If KT is around, she could start a new one titled “Susie’s ed thread” with “Go to it.” as the text.
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I think this is a wonderful discussion, and it is great to learn so much about you all. Impressive bunch.
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No one has mentioned one item in all this: American culture in general. We’ve just witnessed an election where an actual smart guy, a guy who made no effort to hide his intelligence, won. After all those years where “Mr. C student” entertained himself by telling audiences “See, I’m a C student and lookey at all the PhDs workin fer me.” And the audiences laughed. And his base ate it up.
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I defy you to find another industrialized country where poor academic performance would be considered a virtue in their national leader. Where the national media would make fun of political leaders for being too smart. Never happen.
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My wife was utterly stunned in her first year of teaching (high school) to find kids perfectly fine with being labeled LD, even if they weren’t, because they could do less work and be graded leniently that way. It wasn’t just a few kids either. After six years I’m still shocked by that.
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Formerly James said: “NCLB is a political gimmick. Political gimmicks don’t work in the real world.” If I remember right, NCLB was based on the Houston Miracle, which turned out to be a fraud. The ‘Texas Miracle’, 60 Minutes II Investigates Claims That Houston Schools Falsified Dropout Rates – CBS News

formerlyjames,
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I’m not arguing that standardized tests don’t provide A measure of achievement–simply that they shouldn’t be THE measure of achievement in all circumstances.
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I agree with you, wvng (as I so often do). The anti-intellectualism in this country over the last few years has simply astounded me. Do you think, as I do, that the right somehow managed (until this last election) to portray intelligence as effeminate? (I’m thinking John Kerry and maybe Gore.) I saw some gender undertones there, but maybe I’m mistaken.

Anyone noticed that KT hasn’t, in any thread, engaged on the issue of Halperin’s outrageous statements about media bias for Obama. I think this may be a touchy issue among the better class of reporters. The ones who don’t start their day at Drudge and The Corner.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/24/11302/306/554/665591
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But I hope she bites on setting up a thread to discuss the msm’s need to portray bloggers as a monolithic bunch of whiners and screamers and, lately, Clinton haters. Projecting much?
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/24/11290/520/364/665789
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/24/12115/097/329/665816
As kos said: “Really, it’s getting tiresome of you media people inserting words into our mouths. Stop it.”

Suzie I just wanted to say that I wasn’t accusing you personally of bad teaching or bias. I absolutely agree that if poverty wasn’t an issue these children would have a much easier time reaching their full potential. However, I was reacting to your statement that money is not always the solution, implying that money can’t make up for negative environment like violent communities or negligent parents. My position is that money can make up for thee things. Inner city schools can make up for the difference when they have dedicated high quality teachers who are supported by administrators and given all of the resources they need. In some cases it will mean better pay for high quality teachers, the removal of union restrictions so you can have longer hours, tutors, computers etc.
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the problem I have with citing the parental or community background as a reason why these student perform poorly is the excuse that too many use to support the idea that money can’t solve the problem. Because the reality is that these communities and parents aer gong to change anytime soon and if we continue to think we have to have those pieces of the puzzle then we will continue to let entire generations of kids fall through the cracks.
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These kids attend dilapidated schools, with little resources — they earn early that they aren’t very important. What is valued is taken care of and they are not taken care of. And while this might not be your experience — one of the messages that is rampant in the reaching world whether its taught in education courses or just passed on from peer to peer – the meme that poor kids are a t a learning disadvantage is the dominant school of thought — and that’s the disadvantage they are being saddled with.
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This is why teach for America only focuses on the schools with the least resources in the poorest communities because then there are no extenuating circumstances anyone can point to to explain why these poor kids function at a high level and these other don’t.
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I know you might have god intentions and I don’t doubt that you were giving your all to your kids. but the truth is that perception is reality and if it is what you believe it can’t help inform your perceptions. Anecdotally I can’t dispute your experience — but when I look at the empirical data it does not support conventional wisdom.
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Funny how we all jump to question conventional wisdom when it comes from the right — but we don’t seem as ready to question dogma that comes from the left.

I am sorry I just got into this discussion late and there was too much to read when I did. But jumping in at the end tail, I agree with Dee that money does matter. A pleasant environment is crucial to effective education. And that costs money. I taught for some years in all levels of economic status, and I can assure you that where money was spent educational achievement was high. I dismiss any claim that there is no correlation.

KT here–

wvng and suzie: I totally agree with svng. this is a GREAT thread. my problem was, once i saw how well the conversation was going here, i couldn’t figure out a way to transplant it to a new thread without interrupting it. any ideas anyone?

Dee,
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I want to note that I do indeed think money can make an enormous amount of difference in our schools–in upgrading facilities, offering additional services to students, and attracting and retaining great teachers, among other uses. I just think we need to look closely at how we use that money, and also look at changing the poverty in our local communities as another way of helping our schools.
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Believe me, money was an issue where I taught. When I was dating my husband, he was stunned that I bought paper, pencils, pens, scissors, glue, markers, rulers, colored pencils, and other supplies for my kids. I wanted them to have those supplies for hands-on work, and neither the school nor the kids could provide what was needed. On the day of the AP test, I packed them all a lunch so that they would have something to eat during the break. It added up. It’s a large part of the reason that I was several thousand dollars in debt after I left teaching. So, again, I know that money is very, very important to great schools.
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That said, Dee, not to be a pain…but you keep repeating that I’ve somehow bought into “dogma” because I believe parents and communities have a role–not an all-determining one, mind you, but a serious role–in student achievement. I will say once more that while I respect your opinions, you are both incorrect and kind of insulting to assume that if I disagree with you based on my personal experience, I must be somehow brainwashed. Maybe I just don’t agree with you, and it’s legitimate. Sometimes there’s more than one truth, Dee. Maybe parents and communities are important, but their influence can be lessened by the services and benefits provided by lavishly and smartly funded schools. But since I have not worked in lavishly and smartly funded schools, I don’t know!
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Okay, I still haven’t gone food shopping, so I’d better head out. Take care, all, and thanks for the impromptu education thread!

Again, formerlyjames, I have no quibble with the idea that money improves schools and student performance, often drastically. I just don’t think it’s the answer to absolutely everything.

KT, you could just have a thread that says this conversation is still going on down yonder, with a link. And declare the thread you just opened to make your announcement an open thread.

Well clearly Suzine we will have to agree to disagree. Wasn’t trying to insult you I’m just a data person and I’ve learned that conventional wisdom and serious data gathering is often at odds. Yes, parents and community can make a difference but the likelihood we are going to end poverty any time soon is slim to none — even though it is something worthy to shoot for. In the mean time if we know increased funding can make up for what the personal situation has taken away that’s something we should do right away — the data proves it, not me.

KT–
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Whatever you choose to do about the thread is fine. I won’t be hurt if you keep the thread here. Thank you, though, for the opportunity to hash out some of these issues. I’ve been wanting a thread like this for months. Thank you, too, for being so open to communicating and interacting with us commenters. My husband and I are working on adopting a child, and I just started a new job, so my time is limited–but I still make sure I read your threads, even if I don’t have time for anyone else’s. Happy Turkey Day!
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Suzie, who will resume her usual lurking instead of posting

Suzie and Dee et al. There are also environmental factors, particularly in inner city settings, that put the kids behind the physiological/neurological 8 ball. Like the lead legacy from leaded gasoline – soils in many cities are just full of it.
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Suzie, go buy that turkey. And think of the Palin turkey video while you do it.
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Come to think of it, perhaps a soy turkey would do the trick this year?

I’m with Paul on the discrepancy between the views about bailing out Citigroup as opposed to the auto industry. I blogged about it and have concluded, it’s about the corporate jets.

http://ryansrant.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/the-problem-of-corporate-jets/

wvng — of course you are right there is the lead issue along with, other chemical contaminants that produce everything from delayed motor and cognitive skills and increased physical ailments like allergies and asthma. But one of the interesting things is the phenomenon of low expectation is not limited to inner cities. Obama election notwithstanding — in our society race is often used as a substitute for class. And even minority students living in middle-class environments with involved parents are impacted by assumptions that because they are minorities they are less able to handle rigorous course work and are often steered away from AP courses and concentrnations on math and the sciences. This is a function of advisers and teachers who mean well but have thee assumptions ingrained in their psyche so the disadvantaged do less well meme can permeate relatively stable communities.

Okay, one more thing: I did a quick search on Google with the keywords “rich environment children achievement study” and got a LOT of hits. I looked at just one, and found this passage:
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“At the beginning of kindergarten, children’s reading skills and knowledge were related to their home literacy environment. Children
from a “literacy-rich” home environment (i.e., those who are read to,
sung to, and told stories to more frequently and those who have more children’s books, records/audiotapes/CDs in the home) demonstrated higher reading knowledge and skills than other children. This relationship existed whether their families’ income was above or below the federal poverty threshold (U.S. Department of Education 2003, indicator 36).
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Children’s performance in reading during kindergarten and 1st grade was also related to their home literacy resources upon entering kindergarten (Denton and West 2002). Paralleling the pattern for children upon kindergarten entry, children with rich literacy environments at home were more likely than other children to perform well in reading at the end of both kindergarten and 1st grade.”
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http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2003/2003070.pdf
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Again, I’m not saying that great schools and teachers can’t overcome an early deficit like those found in this study, but environment does matter.

wvng,
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Tofurkey! Nah. My husband would be so disappointed. He would live on a diet of bacon alone if he could.

Dee, you should go into education. You have described a well known phenomena known as the Pygmelion Effect. What you expect is what you get.

Dee: “And even minority students living in middle-class environments with involved parents are impacted by assumptions.” I’m sure that is true, as it is true that girls suffer from certain expectations as well (see: Summers, Larry). I would never ever ever argue that students shouldn’t be given every opportunity to excel, nor would I argue that race, sex, class-based assumptions are not harmful in the extreme. But, as Suzie said, environment does matter.
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And Suzie, remember, it’s all about the gravy! Now go shopping.

Suzie, you didn’t have to knock youself out looking that up. I would agree fully on the face of it. No need for any scientific study. Forgive me if I dismissed that notion when I was pontificating for the money issue.

I’m not saying that environment doesn’t matter. while this is an older study — we have found that early literacy skills can be diminished by involved parents whose parenting style is more authoritarian. But no one is suggesting that we tell these parents how to do discipline their children aside from a societal disapproval of corporal punishment.
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What I’m saying is that we now have empirical data that there are ways to get around the environmental deficiencies. Of course these ways cost money and opponents of increased funding use the parental involvement and poverty meme as an excuse not to increase those funds in public schools. The auto industry is not the only entity to find out that the throwing good money after bad meme is successful.

Dee,
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You said: “I’m not saying that environment doesn’t matter. … What I’m saying is that we now have empirical data that there are ways to get around the environmental deficiencies. Of course these ways cost money and opponents of increased funding use the parental involvement and poverty meme as an excuse not to increase those funds in public schools.”
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I don’t dispute any of that. Does this mean a truce can be declared?

And that I can really go get my turkey (and gravy fixings, wvng) now?

I teach English in a private school in Atlanta and have been there going on thirteen years. I’ve taught some at the college level, and one year (my first) at another independent school. I’ve been a “regular” teacher, an honors- and AP-level teacher, a department chair, an assistant principal, and a dean of students. I’ve dealt with all sorts of stuff: building a curriculum, establishing traditions in the new Upper School, shepherding seniors through their final year to graduation, student use of alcohol and drugs, irate parents yelling about the unfair treatment of their child, a school-wide laptop program, bomb threats, parental abuse, eating disorders, depression, racism, homophobia, crazy teachers I helped fire halfway through the year, you name it.
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Then I read this thread and I want to weep. This week I walked into my classroom and found a brand-new SmartBoard with built-in speakers and a projector on the wall. It looks like a holodeck. Last week our head of school had lunch with all the department chairs and asked us how much we could take our curricula online so we wouldn’t have to be driven by textbooks and could each create our own courses. This year, every kid from grade 5 to 12 in my school has an Apple laptop. I get to change my assigned reading from year to year if I want, as do teachers from my departments (English and Religion) if I and the principal sign off on the changes. I teach AP English and have never, not once, had an administrator question my ability to teach the course based on my students’ test scores from any given year. We look at our students’ SAT scores and wonder if we can do anything to raise them, or if we SHOULD try to do that or just teach our subjects to the best of our ability and let the SATs take care of themselves.
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I work hard and have had some success as a teacher, but my God I feel like a complete idiot when I read the posts above and think about the times I’ve complained about my job. I’d go in tomorrow and kiss every one of my co-workers and students, except I’d get fired for harassment if not jailed.

oops sorry I had to go stir a pot. Yes Suzie we can declare a truce.

I’m glad, Dee. At heart, I’m a lover, not a fighter!
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Shakespeare,
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You’re not an idiot, and should not feel bad. No matter what your teaching circumstances, anyone who’s out there doing his/her best for our kids every day deserves nothing but respect (and, yes, a pay raise). I have to say, I would love to visit your school, though–sounds like educational nirvana!

Shakespeare if only all public schools operated this way…

Here we agree the starting salary for a qualified teacher should be at least 130K. and I don’t know that an education degree ought to be the only qualification. Just as the high stakes test ought not to be the only measurement for improvement. see Suzie we are totally in sync on most issues.

lol Suzie on the educational nirvana comment…it’s a great school that constantly works to improve. We have our own problems but nothing having to do with teaching to a national test, and we usually have money (although that’s going to tighten up sooner rather than later).
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I have a Ph.D in English and creative writing, plus 15+ years of teaching experience, but no education degree and no state certification to teach anywhere. When I got out of high school and said I wanted to be a teacher, everyone told me to avoid an education degree. Now that’s sad.

Shakes – if you moved to WV they would make you get a teaching certificate before they would let you teach. And while they were waiting for you to get “properly prepared” they might have a sub teaching the course who had no training in the subject at all. And when you finally jumped through the hoops, you might find that half the kids in your high school classes had IEPs and a fair number of your students were reading on a third grade level. Good times.
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Another point – one of the worst things about NCLB (and extreme inclusion) is the extent to which it has harmed high achieving students in systems without substantial resources to support advanced level work. It is assumed that the smart kids can pretty much take care of themselves.

Related topic: In the soon-to-be-published December issue of the Washington Monthly, Kevin Carey, the research and policy manager of Education Sector, an independent think tank in Washington, has a fascinating piece on the apparent contradiction between technology driving down teaching costs, and tuition bills soaring.

Proposed: Time Person of the Year One-Sentence Nominations
Rules: All entries must be in the form of Name, followed by a one-sentence nomination supporting statement, e.g.:
Barack Obama: He won preznit.
I will kick it off with a 4-Pack:
Gordon Gekko: Archetypal Wall-Streeter brought down America using only greed and a huge cordless phone.
Nate Silver: First and only non-porn site to be checked daily by millions in barely dressed, heightened state of arousal.
Barney the First Dog: Fulfilled the dreams of a nation.
The Bald Man: Bernanke, Paulson, Kashkari, and soon-to-be Axelrod make this the year of the dome.

Proposed: Time Person of the Year One-Sentence Nominations
Rules: All entries must be in the form of Name, followed by a  one-sentence nomination supporting statement, e.g.:
Barack Obama: He won preznit.
I will kick it off with a 4-Pack:
Gordon Gekko: Archetypal Wall-Streeter brought down America using only greed and a huge cordless phone.
Nate Silver: First and only non-porn site to be checked daily by millions in barely dressed, heightened state of arousal.
Barney the First Dog: Fulfilled the dreams of a nation.
The Bald Man: Bernanke, Paulson, Kashkari, and soon-to-be Axelrod make this the year of the dome.

Proposed: Time Person of the Year One-Sentence Nominations
Rules: All entries must be in the form of Name, followed by a one-sentence supporting statement, e.g.:
Barack Obama: He won preznit.
I will kick it off with a 4-Pack:
Gordon Gekko: Archetypal Wall-Streeter brought down America using only greed and a huge cordless phone.
Nate Silver: First and only non-porn site to be checked daily by millions in barely dressed, heightened state of arousal.
Barney the First Dog: Fulfilled the dreams of a nation.
The Bald Man: Bernanke, Paulson, Kashkari, and soon-to-be Axelrod make this the year of the dome.

After the drubbing that the GOP received in the last two elections there has been no shortage of conservatives rushing to state that the country as a whole is still one that is center-right. Perhaps it is, but the GOP seems exclusively focused on the “right” and not the “center” in center-right. A wholehearted devotion to conservative views on social issues is turning off suburbanites, women, and young voters. The demagoguery from the Tancaredo-nativist wing of the party has managed to drive two-thirds of the nation’s fastest growing minority — the Hispanics — into the arms of the Democrats.

Geographically, the situation is even more dire. With Christopher Shay’s loss in Connecticut, the Republicans do not represent a single House district from New England. The party faces similar reversals in the rest of the Northeast, the mid-Atlantic states, and the West. The Republican party stands a risk of becoming a regional party with an overwhelming reliance on the South and even that hold is tenuous. Demographic changes in North Carolina and Virginia make these two states a lot more competitive. Demographic changes in Texas, especially with the rise in population of Latinos, threaten GOP domination in a must-win state. (The GOP, despite unprecedented efforts by DeLay and the Republicans, only narrowly controls the Texas state House.)

Sure, President Bush’s unpopularity and John McCain’s lackluster campaign have plenty to do with the electoral defeats but the underlying trends will be catastrophic to the Republicans if they do not correct course. Their choice of a standard bearer in 2012 will either portend such a course-correction, or it will hasten the ruin of a party as the Democrat’s grip on a winning coalition encompassing young voters, Hispanics and other minorities, women, and suburbanites is cemented further.

[...] (The subject of what should happen to No Child Left Behind sparked a terrific and thoughtful conversation among our commenters earlier this week, led by commenter Suzie in [...]

[...] (The subject of what should happen to No Child Left Behind sparked a terrific and thoughtful conversation among our commenters earlier this week, led by commenter Suzie in [...]

[...] (The subject of what should happen to No Child Left Behind sparked a terrific and thoughtful conversation among our commenters earlier this week, led by commenter Suzie in [...]

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