Would It Have Killed Them to Fly Commercial?

Would It Have Killed Them to Fly Commercial?
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Yes. All rich people are deathly allergic to coach seating.

They couldn’t even jet pool?

That’s awesomely… dumb. From every possible perspective except that of someone who’s blind to reality and convinced of their own righteousness.

These guys are doomed to failure. Except maybe Ford. This is just hubris. Like the AIG guys spending all of that money on a retreat. Why?
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The people of the US give you a break and you spit in their faces. They’ll be lucky to ever see one red cent.

Rick Wagoner’s metaphorical head on a pike has to be a non negotiable provision of a bail out.

His VP Bob “Global Warming is a crock of sh–” Lutz needs to go with him. Lutz is the product czar at GM. That is the problem. They need to line up everybody with a key to the executive bathroom and tell them to pack up and go.

This is why the auto industry must be nationalized temporarily. These people are preternaturally dishonest…they must be fired and the boards dismissed.

KT,

Wouldn’t flying commercial have shown some fore thought? Like maybe bringing up the workers and union reps to plead the case with them.

Well, yeah, but let’s not demagogue the issue into a universal pink slip for all UAW members. As far as I can tell, opposition to the loan guarantees is aimed largely at union workers – hence Mittens’ urging of a Chapter 11 solution. That, in turn, is just a sour grapes response from the GOP. When the focus turns to “labor costs” it’s usually a cover story for stockholder greed.

To add to FlownOver’s point– It’s very misleading to blame unions for the industry’s productivity problems: “[E]conomist Barry T. Hirsch, in a survey of the literature on this topic (chapter 7 of this excellent book), recently wrote that ‘[t]he empirical evidence does not allow one to infer a precise estimate of the average union productivity effect, but my assessment of existing evidence is that the average union effect is very close to zero, and as likely to be somewhat negative as somewhat positive.’”
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It’s worse than stockholder greed– it’s the greed of the board and management. Not that the two can’t go hand in hand, but it’s primarily the latter. Stockholders care, or should care, about productivity, not alienating the company’s rank and file employees.

I know we like to see at as arrogance and hubris etc. But this is the real problem with the auto industry and big business in general — their is a disconnect between them and everyone else. And I know this might sound socialist to my friends on the right but I think it might have something to do with the difference in pay. How can someone who makes 250 times what you do have any clue how you see the world and what matters to you. They came in private jets because they had no sense that it mattered. If I was this management team the first thing I would do when I got home is hire me my own personal Joe the plumber — okay maybe not that idiot Sam.

By the way, we were all quite whiny, with good reason, when the spam/nanny mod thing here was out of control. Thanks to KT and the High Sheriffs for making things run more smoothly. And “ass” to you all!

It’s not just the union workers, even if that were a valid concern. What’s going to happen to all the pensioners when chapter 11 “re-structures” the debt and all those people are dumped from the rolls with either a significantly reduced, or, more likely, non-existent retirement?

They can sell the jets but as long as they are making Chevy Aveos and Pontiac Vibes it won’t help.

pirate wench –

Let them eat stock.

CNN is pushing the corporate agenda. They said that the execs had no choice. Corporate policy is that they fly in the corporate jets for “their safety”.

“How can someone who makes 250 times what you do have any clue how you see the world and what matters to you. They came in private jets because they had no sense that it mattered.” – Dee in MD
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And there you have it. There are a mess of people out in flyover country (like me, for instance) who want to see somebody PUNISHED for urinating their jobs away. Haircuts, mud-baths, and private jets are like a red rag to a bull.

KT — I know this is a little off topic but in try8ng to get some incite into the minds of your colleagues why do they in one breath admit that they don’t understand why Obama would make a certain choice and then with the next breath say he’s making a mistake. Is it some sort of innate position that if they are unable to comprehend something it should be rejected? Present company excluded of course.

I remember when the automakers were looking for government financial help back in the early 80′s. The executives from GM and Ford showed up at the White House in the usual stretch black limousines. Lee Iacocca and the Chrysler executives showed up in a four-seater Dodge Omni. What a great photo op!

I think if and when those people lose their jobs and pensions…people might get to burning stuff down. I know I’d seriously consider it.
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Ass

CNN is pushing the corporate agenda. They said that the execs had no choice. Corporate policy is that they fly in the corporate jets for “their safety”.

What are they going to get mugged on the monorail at the Detroit airport?

All I know Dee is that David Broder came out against Hillary Clinton today, which means she is the right pick. David Broder is the Bill Kristol of the centrist class. He is almost always wrong. Perhaps the Bush bounce is going to happen in December though.

Trifecta – CNN can say what they want, but that sort of “corporate policy” is called cronyism (and I am sure the CNN/Time/Warner whoever they are management do it too). They want to fly in jets, so they get a policy written – by the people who work for them, of course – that they have to fly in jets. They’ll get their insurance companies, who get fat premiums from them, to back it up. Then they go to board meetings for other companies in their jets and recommend that those CEOs fly in jets too. Kind of how they all take boards seats on each others’ boards, and then recommend that management get more compensation or a better severance package – then those deals are held up by their own executive compensation committees as evidence of their own need for a better package. Round and round it goes.

Trifecta again – hear, hear re Broder. Not only wrong, but willfully, petulantly wrong.

The main thing I have against Clinton as SoS right now is that I cannot bear the idea of MoDo frothing about it every couple of days.

Hey – we could punish Broder for everybody losing their jobs! It’d be a win-win.

What are they going to get mugged on the monorail at the Detroit airport?
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With all the anger around here, I wouldn’t be suprised if someone kidnapped them and forced them to clean out a septic tank.
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Seriously. You guys are frothing at the mouth.
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It’s not like the Big 3 have been doing extremely successful at the expense of everyone else. The Big 3 have been losing market share since the 70′s. They knew they were losing. They just failed to do anything about it. Greed would have dictated they do something to make more money, and yet they keep losing.
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Wall Street became greedy. The Big 3 became complacent.

Barnie Frank is right that the response to the idea of bailing out the auto makers involves a prejudice against blue-collar workers (let them eat food stamps) as opposed to bailing out AIG (they must continue to reward their great performers.
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This was an incredibly stupid move on the part of clueless management.
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Jeffrey Sachs says that the Detroit automakers (or at least one – can’t remember which, in all honesty) are poised to overtake the Japanese automakers in green technology beginning with the 2010 models. I’d bet on Jeffrey Sachs. So I’m hoping somebody figures out how to cut the managerial abuses out immediately and then puts together a package to bridge Detroit to a green future.

Re: Broder. Costanza Principle.
http://www.michaelport.com/blog/posts/the-costanza-principle.html

“The Big 3 became complacent.” Heck, the whole country’s been complacent. Who’s going to bail US out?

Barney Frank is backing Dingell over Waxman. He is being part of the problem.

Heck, the whole country’s been complacent.
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Which explains why people keep buying trucks and SUVs while the ice caps melt. It’s not the Big 3′s fault that SUVs and trucks were still popular all the way up to $4 a gallon. Now that it’s back down, my commute has become a bit more crowded.
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Think about it this way: is the consumer of fast food responsible for his obesity, or is the fast food company responsible for not offering healthier alternatives? It’s the same thing with car companies.

“CNN is pushing the corporate agenda. They said that the execs had no choice. Corporate policy is that they fly in the corporate jets for “their safety”.”
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Dee,
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Funny how its the rest of their corporate policy that sends them to DC hat in hand. Clueless much.

Kathy, I agree – much as the “rescue” is for banks not borrowers. I think it is, in essence, union busting. Unions have been demonized so much, it is so hard for people to muster sympathy for unionized employees, even the people of Congress. On the scale of bad words, union is better than atheist but worse than liberal – maybe close to communist?

trifecta – Barney could well have a positive influence here (or not) but I don’t think that backing Dingell automatically makes him part of the problem. The problem is so large that the people who eventually move this forward in a positive way may – in fact almost certainly will – disagree with us on some aspects of this.

calkate. socialist at least

Okay this is way too funny. Wonkette on the NRO begging for money and getting slammed for taking a cruise just before the begging.
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Cruising [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
I’m getting a number of e-mails from people who complain that we have some nerve asking for money after spending on a cruise last week. I totally understand how that looks bad. But here’s what you need to know: The reason we do these cruises is they bring in money. It’s another fundraiser. And rather than tanning in the Bahamas, we do work — panels, interviews, dinner, lunch, and other discussions. I tell you that not to whine — its a nice thing to work with a little sun in the cabin window vs. the usual Lexington Avenue noise. But we don’t do these as staff vacation perks. The time spent is an investment in the conservative future — because it supports NR and because real conversations happen, with policymakers, with young people, with supporters.
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And like I said in my pitch today, National Review in all its forms has always and I suspect will always, rely on readers. Thank you again.
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Wonkette has a lot more of the begging so go check it out.
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http://wonkette.com/404484/a-childrens-treasury-of-corner-posts-in-which-k-lo-begs-for-money#more-404484

I assume this is for his safety, too…
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Ford CEO Mulally’s corporate jet is a perk included for both he and his wife as part of his employment contract along with a $28 million salary last year. Mulally actually lives in Seattle, not Detroit. The company jet takes him home and back on weekends.

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..because its just not safe to be in Detroit on the weekends.

gysgt – so the cruise is…corporate policy?
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NR people maybe aren’t safe if they hold their conversations in normal public places rather than on cruise ships populated with fellow conservatives.

Okay so we have pots and kettles and the rest of us are just hanging out in the fire.

My pledge to the employees of Ford Motor Company: For $1 million dollars next year, I will lose the same amount of money Mulally would have, and split the $27 million difference with each and every one of you in return. No, really. It’s my pleasure. I’ll sleep in the office.

I saw the words ‘Johah Goldberg’ and ‘cruising’ and I thought of something entirely different.

Oh, and we’ll raffle off the jet and then have a potluck. There’s probably some stuff in the office fridge.

The bailout of the auto industry is doomed for failure, just as the financial bailout will soon prove as well. Saving several thousand union jobs, who are just as responsible as the Corporate execs will undoubtably bankrupt the US of A.

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Deflation has now set in, and if you think the auto-union jobs at stake are risky to loose, you have not seen anything if deflation takes a grip on our country. But, a correction to our economy is at hand, and no one will stop it. I predict in 6 to 10 months you shall see the greatest cry from starving Americans you have ever witnessed. People on the streets begging for a dime to buy a burger at McDonalds.
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Yes, I am glad that Obama won this election, because in four short years he will be reviled, and go down in history as the worst President, ever. Obama’s plan to tax the rich will certainly doom what small chance we have in preventing this economic crisis.

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Bailout General Motors, and you will never see a sustainable enconomy for yourself and your children the rest of your life.

You know, if RustyP@ssy were a Senator….I’d say he’s bucking to get into the Democratic caucus.

So basically, Rusty, you’re saying that we’re screwed already – “Deflation has now set in.” In which case, who cares if there’s a bailout or not?

rusty! Hahahahahahaha.
*points finger*

I think rusty has developed a twitch.

Poking. The. Troll.
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Must. Not. Start. Poking. The. Troll.

“People on the streets begging for a dime to buy a burger at McDonalds.”

OK, I’m breaking my own rule, but the last time a burger at McDonald’s cost a dime was like 1968. I’ll be so desperate I have to hit a whole busload of people for a dime each? That’s not change we can believe in, my friends.

I love my country and am truly in awe of the way it was constructed. But the more I hear from the GOP the more I think we should have a provision for voting them off the island.
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These people have learned nothing from the last 8 years and are implementing a scorched earth strategy (bankrupt the auto industry put 3 million workers at risk) just so they have a platform for elections in 2012.
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Have these people no shame? And is thee a savvy lawyer among us that could make a credible case for treason?

Rusty,

And the option is to kill off American manufacturing jobs and then endure a depression.

The automakers and their associate businesses represent millions and millions of jobs. Let’s not forget some of those manufacturers who go out of business also provide parts to Toyota, Honda and Nissan plants in America. Which means those plants go idle too, causing more unemployment.

When the big three go out of business that also means a limited amount of parts for the millions of GM, Ford and Chrysler cars on the road. When they run out, people will be leaving them on the side of the road. Not only that but when they go out of business all the warantees become worthless.. your car breaks down you pay for it.

Lets not forget the drastic reduction in tax dollars, large US cities like Detroit go bankrupt, states go bankrupt and all the associated businesses also go bankrupt. Wave after wave after wave of businesses going under followed by cities and states….. and finally the US government.

Sounds like your kind of future Rusty.

Dee

We establish reservations for Republicans, move the Indians into their upscale communities and the Republicans get the crappy lands we gave the Indians. Won’t need to educate Republican children, since they don’t believe in education. Just give them some preachers to tell them everything is all right and they are in this mess because of liberals, gays, blacks and hispanics and they will be all right in their new digs.

Dee, I know what it’s like not to have a job, not to have health insurance, and no clue where the rent is going to come from, much less what we’re going to do for food in a day or two. I’ve been there, and it looks like I’m on my way back. It’s tragic. I get that.
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On the other hand, how can you look at that sorry crew that turned up on Capitol Hill and want to give them any money at all unless they agree to adult supervision? Do you honestly think they’ll do any better than they’ve always done?

Given that Time Warner is about to engage in another rounds of layoffs, maybe you should be asking when was the last time Parsons or Bewkes flew coach?

The fact that auto companies are losing money doesn’t make their CEO’s time less valuable — and if we are going to criticize corporate excess, it should be across the board, and not this kind of nit-picky nonsense.

Holy crap! Lead change in MN.

http://ww2.startribune.com/news/metro/elections/returns/2008/recount/msenco.html

Let us by all means criticize corporate excess across the board. I’m up for it if you are.

There’s a deep, deep mass psychosis w/ white conservatives…it’s sooooo f@cking fascinating. Self hating closeted gays. Poor working class whites clamoring for capital gains tax cuts. Wonder what Faulkner would have done with all this material.
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plukasiak, not only that….Time was firing reporters to clear enough money to hire Bill Kristol a while back. Talk about stupid decisions.

Elvis, Cincy –

Nice ass. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

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Thanks be to KT and whoever deep-sixed the ModeraBot

Would it ever occur to Congress to say to these guys, “Okay, we’ll give you your money, but to get it, all of you, plus those in upper management and on the boards, must resign. Without bonuses. And sell the jets.”
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These are the guys who have driven (no pun intended) these companies into the ground. Seems only right that they should be the first to go.

gunny –

looks like a reduction in the size of the lead, but Norm the Worm ( I know, but it LOOKS cool) is still ahead.

[...] The Auto Industry?  Dunno.  Honestly, I don’t.  Every day I go back and forth. Five days ago I read an article that said let them go into Chapter 11 bankruptcy.  In 11 they can still make cars and yet have the protection of the government that will allow them to renegotiate certain deals.  I was sold. The next day I read an article that said something to the effect that while bankruptcy might seem like a good idea – it is what we made the airlines do – it won’t work.  See the auto industry works on a loan system which won’t work under bankruptcy protection.  They take out a loan, buy parts they need, build cars, sell cars, repay the loan. (Farmers do much the same thing bytheway.) Since the credit market is screwed though, this all comes to a grinding halt.  If they can’t get loans, they can’t buy parts on credit, build cars, sell cars and even more damaging they take down the parts industry as well.  I was sold – I didn’t like it but I was sold. The next day I read an article that said no they will be able to survive under bankruptcy protection. Basically, it goes Forth and Back until I toss up my hands. [...]

Flown,
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The links is updating in real time. Each candidate can challenge votes and each one it appears is losing votes. At any rate its going back and forth. I think Nate Silver is monitoring also.

department, you beat me to my thought. I was just going to post that it seems to me that the auto industry is suffering more grief and criticism in this mess than they deserve. They depend on the credit markets for existance. The 2 major items people borrow money for are houses, then cars. For all of the abuse directed at the auto execs, lets remember that they are coming in on the tail end of this mess, and logically so. Like department, I don’t know what is best for them, bail money or bankruptcy reorganization, but what I do know is that much of the rhetoric regarding them is misplaced and serves no good purpose.

Man that Harry Reid sure did chasten that Joe Lieberman guy!
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Couric: Do you feel as if you owe President-Elect Obama one?
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Lieberman: Well, look, no more than what I’ve said from the day after the election two weeks ago, which is: I congratulate Barack Obama on becoming our president. I offer him my full-hearted commitment to help in any way I can to make him the president we need at this urgently critical time in mesh history.

mesh history?

Don’t watch this if you have a queasy stomach
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http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4619447n

Like department, I don’t know what is best for them, bail money or bankruptcy reorganization, but what I do know is that much of the rhetoric regarding them is misplaced and serves no good purpose.

what’s best for “them” (the corporations and their stockholders) is bankruptcy. “They” have made consistently bad decisions in the name of short term profits, and the stockholders should suffer for their greed.

The problem here is what happens to everyone else who will lose because of the irresponsibility that is intrinsic to greed based “market capitalism” — not just the people making an average of less than $30/hr working for the big three, but everyone who lives in places like Detroit, who will suffer if these companies go belly up.

meshuggah history?

OT, but CNN is reporting that Bush was snubbed at the G20. This is just sad. Stunning really. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6Y_ncOVlDw
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and sgw, I’m not sure I can stand to watch Lieberman with Couric – I assume that is your tape. His voice is like fingernails on the blackboard of my soul.

plukasiak, the stockholders greed? everyone who lives in places like Detroit? greed based “market capitalism”? Man, you paint with such a broad brush, I can’t begin to engage in rational discussion here.

pluk, comment 65 – that’s the root of the problem, admirably expressed.
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Is there a way to avoid rewarding the “consistently bad decisions” of the few, while at least ameliorating the condition of those “who will suffer if these companies go belly up”? If not, what course of action will cause the least harm?

wvng, that is to laugh about the fingernails on the blackboard. To me, he is a sleeping pill. He is so boring in speech, manner, and all, I fall asleep when I see him. Like he did to voters in 2000. Novocaine mouth Lieberman.

wvng
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Thats why I put the disclaimer up. And yes its THAT bad. But whats worse at least on the clip is tht Katie Couric didnt bring up anything about his time as chairman of HS committee nor his campaigninng for Collins and Coleman. She again makes it look like it was simply about smears he said about Obama.

sgwhite, I did go there, I did watch it. It is disgusting. He surely is the most reviled American after Bush. Absolute slime. Now I will go shower the vermine and filth that I imagine is crawling over me after watching him.

By the way, Lieberman says he wasnt really punished. He simply gave up his seat to make room for in coming freshmen Senators. Yep Obama has him RIGHT where he wants him!
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http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15801.html
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/19/cheerful-lieberman-i-wasn_n_145021.html

This is too deep in the thread, but I’ve been busy today.
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The benefits the auto workers have, the pension and retirement health care benefits, were exchanged, at the time, under effin’ contract negotiations with the representatives of the shareholders who were taking dividends.
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The workers agreed (did not demand, just by the way) to forgo wages in order to get these benefits. They took less cash on the table in return for these benefits. This is what management wanted, in order to maximize the next set of quarterly returns.
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Now one can say “Oh heavens!! Who knew what it would be like this in 30 years? You can’t possibly hold those shareholders to the contractual obligations they entered into. How could they have known that it would be expensive to pay those retirement benefits they signed a contract to provide?”
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This would be a great deal more persuasive if these same people were saying “Well, heavens, people paid too much for their houses. How could they know, thirty years later, that they paid too much. Not their fault. We’ll give them money to make up for their mistake.”
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Oh, and a ticket to ride on a corporate jet.

Got to disagree with almost everything posted on this topic. Throwing money at this won’t make a difference until the union contract are broken. They are essentially making the companies non-competitive, and until that is resolved – a bailout is only a short term fix. Perhaps if tying the bailout to putting everything in the union contract on the table would it be a worthwhile exercise.

Yes, the companies have been poorly led – but poorly led companies die in the long run.

James and wvng: the cruelest thing of all. One day I realized that Lieberman resembles my French bulldog. Marley is a cheerful, loyal soul, not a sanctimonious or judgmental bone in his body (in the way of dogs), and yet, I now find it harder to love the poor little fellow…

jayackroyd – that’s all fine and dandy, but that doesn’t change the situation. The contracts are a huge burden on the company – and that burden is partly passed down to consumers. Unless they are changed, these companies are at a competitive disadvantage that is not sustainable in a global economy.

jayackroyd, I think you are a little harsh on the “shareholders”, and too generous with the unions. The shareholders haven’t exactly reaped windfall profits for several years, and the unions aren’t babes in the woods not demanding anything. My point earlier, in agreement with the department at 59 is that things are more complicated than what people want to believe. Everybody wants to settle on simple conclusions, and there ain’t any. Let’s just dispense with that to get through it.

Everything is so simple if you are a Republican. No need to think, after all a depression will solve everything.

Republicans think: Who needs manufacturing, who needs jobs, the real America is in India, China and any other place you can get workers to work for nothing.

I’m waiting for Senator Shelby of Alabama to just come out and say… nO need to worry about the country after we close down the auto industry… after all we can just eat the unemployeed workers.

By the way some investment guru says the Dow is headed to 6400. Soup lines anyone?

Senator Shelby: Unemployeed workers taste just like chicken.

Anybody coming on here talking about the problems with the unions don’t realize that the unions have already made lots of concessions. But the question becomes just how far you want to go with that. Are line workers supposed to get paid minimum wage and get sh!tty health benefits? I am pretty sure thats not practical at all. At the same time when you are looking at the savings from busting up the union I just wonder how much money they would save by selling their luxury jets that the rank and file never get to work on, but cutting CEO pay which one of them reportedly made 28 million last year and by cutting back on CEO health care expenses. Union members are becoming the scape goats for the Auto bailout like minorirites were made the scape goats for the financial bailout. But in the end if YOU were working on those production lines some how I doubt that you would be so willing to cut your own pay and health benefits.

You know what?
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Fvck it all!
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Dump ‘em. Go ahead. I give a damm (not seriously, but…).
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It not the unions or the workers but what the hay. In your eagerness to preserve the tatters of globalization, and still not out of the thrall of supply side free trade economics, lets just let ‘em tank!
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Fvck the manufacturing base!
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BTW, did any of you bother to look at the Dow-O-Meter’s antics today?
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It may not truly reflect the economy, but I can say this:
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It is the business world voting…

Please correct me if I am wrong, but when I listened to the hearings yesterday they have a new contract that will take effect in 2010, that will put the wages close to the non union contract car workers.
Maybe if the auto industry goes down Dem’s can take out Senator Shelby in two years?

I’ve been in and out all day as well. I think people understimate that production workers at the big 3 have been asked to be more productive and for themost part they have been.
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Notwithstanding Lee Iacocca’s history with Ford, he did take a dollar a year salary (and a lot of deffered compensation almost 30 years ago at Chrysler). He was rewarded handsomely after he got the company back on its feet, and the loans were paid off early. He called it “economy of sacrifice.” Not of one these CEOs grasp what sacrifice means.
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These behemoth corporations have all the maneuverability of an supertanker. They can’t turn on a dime, they can’t be flexible, and they have tons and tons of deadwood throughout their organizations(particularly on the indirect labor side).
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I believe pourmecoffee commented earlier today that the banks who are in the process of receiving 750 billion for loans, should loan 25 billion to the auto industry. If I were in congress, I’d tell these guys to go to the banks for loans. If they don;t get them, tell me who the banks are, and I’ll get Paulson to apply some pressure.
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I can’t understand why the auto industry can’t get bridge loan financing.

“…after all we can just eat the unemployeed workers.”
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Now that is what I call “fierce work ethic”!

sgwhite, in the auto industry, we are a long, long, long way from talking or even hinting of minimum wage with no benefits. Are you serious? I am not anti-union. I am not pro status quo (to borrow a popular Repub term), in minimum wage. I am saying that blame flames won’t help. I am saying that the unions are not innocent victims, and stockholders are not villians. The CEO compensation and incompetence issues are to big to go into for me now.

“The contracts are a huge burden on the company – and that burden is partly passed down to consumers.”
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Yeah…see, you just send all high paying jobs overseas so those products are super cheap. Then we all take jobs as waiters and waitresses(at restaurants that haven’t gone under) and sell each other our houses for big profit, and if that’s not enough, make up the diff on our credit cards. It’s a great economic system!
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These are the same geniuses who’ve been telling us that the ‘American way of life’ is non negotiable for the last 3 decades.

Andy:
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What you say! And more than once. To wit:
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Did any of you “armchair economists” even remember that the auto industry collapse is entrained in the financial sector collapse?
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Huh? What did I say? I said there’s a credit crunch. You cannot get financing for a car.
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Repeat rinse, say it again for those warm, stoopid rocks on the windowsill!
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Did anyone notice a huge spike in gas prices. This year?
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What? Huh? Whaddya mean?
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Yup. The auto industry got caught by not one, but two conundrums!
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Domber than warm rocks on a windowsill…

Oh, not directed at you, Andy.

“Maybe if the auto industry goes down Dem’s can take out Senator Shelby in two years?”
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Tell us what bridge you’ll be living under and we’ll shoot by to pick up your contribution.

cinci, the auto industry is one that has in recent years moved here in assembly plants. Granted, much of the parts come from other countries, but Toyota has opened giant plants throughout the USA. But not to Detroit and environs. To Tennessee and Texas, non union places where they have less labor costs. Just saying.

Many years ago, I worked for a local company that was owned by a national corporation that was owned by a multinational that liked to micromanage. Yes, it was as bad as you imagine.
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My favorite business book at the time was Robert Townsend’s “Up the Organization: How to stop the Corporation from Stifling People and Strangling Profits.” It is just conceivable that I irritated some people by xeroxing pages out of the book and posting them on the bulletin board. But I think that a lot of American corporations would do well to have his core messages of responsibility and common sense and human values on their collective foreheads.
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Townsend’s observations were always direct and to the point. “There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with our country except that the leaders of all our major organizations operate under the wrong assumptions.” “One of the most important tasks of a manager is to eliminate his people’s excuses for failure.” “If you have to have a policy manual, publish the Ten Commandments.” There are a few clippings here:
http://archerpelican.typepad.com/tap/2004/12/up_the_organiza.html

formerlyjames
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Notice I didn’t call your name. I am talking about those select few who are saying the the Big 3 need to go into bankruptcy specifically to get rid of the union contracts. If you go read my post again and realize it wasn’t really directed at you I think you would have to say that you and I agree pretty much in principle.

Aside from the distraction of private jets the potential bail out of the auto makers presents real ethical problems – either way you go. …………

http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/11/19/detroit-bailout-an-ethical-conundrum/

Bankruptcy used in order to shed union contracts was pioneered by Bar S.
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We all know what has happened since then. As a point, the non-union plants are part and parcel of the auto industry, as are many non-union suppliers.
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In addition, it bears saying that Friar Tuck is right in that we do have, besides my somewhat troll-like rantings, a real supply/demand problem on top of the entrinment of the big 3 debacle by the financial collapse. There are less people buying cars.
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But neither case makes for a legitemate excuse for not bailing out the big 3 – if we can model it after the one and only successful bailout scheme that succeeded, which was the Chrysler bailout.
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I’m all for oversight, and, of course, the Chrysler model is a template, and a successful one, so let’s not toss 3,000,000 jobs and what little that’s left of our manufacturing base in a kneejerk fit of “globalization is inevitable”, and “bust the union hidden agenda” solutions for this problem!

Krugman was on Maddow saying that we shouldn’t punish the other 999,997 auto-industry workers just because the CEOs are jerks.
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Focusing on the jets is like the brouhaha over earmarks. Who cares if you shave $250M off the national debt? It’s statistically insignificant.

The east side of Lake Washington is blessed with people who can look at the whole forest and not just the individual trees.

And, with oversight, the 25B for the auto industry is cheap at the price.
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Let’s not kill the rooster…

So, formerlyjames…what your saying is that the American Way of Life IS negotiable. Gotcha. I’d heard differently my entire adult life.

sgwhite, of course, I agree. Please forgive my defensive overreaction. I doth protest too much.

53_3:
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Thanks for not linking me to those rocks on the window sill.

cinci, I don’t really follow that about the American Way of Life being negotiable. My post was just about how jobs have been created here in our country.

There is a great movie on called Pierrpont. I’ll check back here later.

What a bunch of schmucks. Why didn’t they coordinate their trip and take one of the jets from Detroit city? I’m sure there is nothing in the Sherman Antitrust Act prohibiting them sharing a corporate jet.

cookie puss @12–Toyota makes the Pontiac Vibe. the Toy version is the Matrix–a GREAT car.

So, the jet-flying auto-dinosaurs didn’t see it coming.
Hey, if the dinosaur has gotta go, then it has gotta go.
What do you want to save it for?
THAT is un-American!
[And it is unnatural too!]

The only silver lining on the Lieberman issue is Jon Stewart is having a FIELD DAY with his azz and as well as Harry Reid

@ Cookie: I own a Chevy Aveo, you insensitive clod… Actually, it’s not a bad car. The electrical system has had mostly “hiccups,” but, otherwise, it’s been solid.

Nice Guy: Sorry for the cheap shot. Better stock up on spare parts right now.

This isn’t easy stuff. Management sucks but only R’s would enjoy all those folks losing their jobs. Anybody got an idea why Frank is still supporting Dingell?

Plukasiak, good to see you again. I missed you.

This is such a trivial issue. These big corporations all have private jets for the executives to be able to travel easier and faster to/from meetings worldwide without the stress of cancellations or delays to execute their respective company’s agenda.

The benefits of these private jets outweighs the disadvantages. It’s just the same as condemning the US president for using two presidential jets everytime he goes abroad when he only needs one when the whole country is suffering. It may not seem like its necessary but it is very much so.

I guess the congressman who brought up the issue is trying to insinuate that the auto-industry is in trouble because of private jet expenditure instead of faulty deals with workers unions.

I think some of these questions need to be vetted before the hearings.

For crying out loud! Stop wasting time on trivial questions and start asking serious questions on how they plan to pay back the money, renegotiate the faulty deals!

I was an union pipefitter before retiring and can remember times when the local union cut wages and benefits to enable the union contractors to be competitive against non union companies. I don’t see why the UAW can’t do the same; although they should make sure management took cuts also. I liked what the Chrysler ceo said about his salary…$1.00 a year. That’s what Iaacoca took when Chrysler was in bad shape years ago. Gm and Ford’s ceo said they would keep their millions. Someone answer this: What does someone do with all that money? My highest earnings for one year was $50k and I thought I was living the life of Riley with so much money. Most of my working years I made around $30k or less a year.

It’s not just the union workers, even if that were a valid concern. What’s going to happen to all the pensioners when chapter 11 “re-structures” the debt and all those people are dumped from the rolls with either a significantly reduced, or, more likely, non-existent retirement?

That’s the heart of the problem. The stockholders and management decided to defer costs, and offered benefits in the future in lieu of wages, and then failed to provide adequate funding for those future benefits.

They made a deal with the workers to forego current income in exchange for future benefits, but are now saying they can’t pay. Homeowners in situations like this are treated like dirt, stripped of their asset by the sheriff.

Credit card holders find their personal assets seized.

The idea that taxpayers will give money to owners and management of these companies is appalling. The first contribution to the nationalization plan is to strip them of all their personal assets, as well as their stocks, and put it into the nationalization fund.

I liked what the Chrysler ceo said about his salary…$1.00 a year.
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But he rode the corporate jet? What this usually means is he took his compensation in stock options, and kept all of the perqs-car, driver etc.
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It’s hard to figure out this stuff. On the one hand, an effective hands-on CEO really shouldn’t have to waste any time on transit. If he really is working an effective 10 hours a day, then his time is worth a car, a driver, a plane. On the other hand, an effective hands-off CEO doesn’t need that stuff, because he’s working a 6 hour day. Both systems work, and I tend to prefer the latter.
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And then there are the CEOs who could easily be replaced by someone making a tenth as much money with no perqs. In most companies, it is not that difficult a job. And the part that is difficult often involves sheer guesswork about the direction of a marketplace or the success of a product line. Or the effectiveness of a division head.

But if all the top quintile salaries were cut by a quarter, and all the 10 percent by half, the company could operate just fine. People would leave, but other people would come.

“Would it have killed them to fly commercial?”
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Could they have found a more effective way to say “Hell no. It will be business as usual. Give us the money. Or we’ll fire everybody, and everybody who supplies us.”

Hey all you with GM products. Prepare for the future, go out to the junk yard find a nice same model auto with minimal damage and then buy it and have it hauled to your backyard. No you won’t look like a redneck even if you put it up on blocks and strew beer cans all around.
Then sit and wait..

If GM goes out of business so will many of their suppliers, thus GM parts will be very difficult to get… in just a few months. The parts will also be expensive.. Think…. concert tickets are expensive because of all the ticket sellers on ebay and ticket sites…. well the good old American capitalist system will figure out GM car parts are gold. And will be priced accordingly. At least you will have a spare car for parts and can keep driving your GM car for a few years… because in the depression no one will be able to afford a new car from anyone. You will drive like a king by all those GM and other model US cars sitting by the side of the road because no one can either get the parts or afford to get the parts to repair their American car.

But don’t worry if your car dies and you can not get to work or have no job.. there is a solution… Senator Shelby of Alabama says unemployed workers taste just like chicken. Republicans finally will stop eating their own and turn on the unemployed.

By the way why arre we so focused on a non issue like corporate jets.
Kind of silly. I’ve been on a few. Believe it or not a coporate jet has space to work and that’s what usually happens. A commercial jet nothing. Why pay one of these guys thousands of dollars an hour to just sit in a tiny seat and do nothing? This is a non issue probably started by Drudge or Linbaugh and we are all falling for it just like usual.

Sort related. Josh Marshall says we Need a Catchphrase”
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In our new economic era, I think we need a new catchphrase for CEOs like Mark Whittle of the South Financial Group, who pushed up his retirement ahead of schedule so he could bag his mega-Golden parachute a few weeks before he sent his company hat in hand to the government for bailout funds.
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Total bailout for Whittle’s company: $347 million. Total parachute for Whittle: $18 million.
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Seriously, what’s the catchphrase? Because I think we’re going to see a lot of this. “

Fact – round trip Detroit to Washington Reagan Airport in the lowest available first class fare on nonstop flights – $1379.00. And they spend HOW much on private jets? It is ludicrous to ask for money when you are wasting so much on frivolities. Not that I want them to fail – I live in Southeastern Michigan. But c’mon guys get real!

Further on the dubious economy of flying commercial:
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These guys are getting paid (I won’t say “earning”) somewhere north of $10K per hour. Going through security alone would more than double the cost of commercial travel.
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And if they’d flown commercial, how much would the amortized cost of an idle corporate jet come to? Maybe these “titans of obsolescence” shouldn’t have their jets, but if they’re already in the hangar…
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And again, if the ultimate effect is to negate union contracts (under Chapter 11, per Mittens) that pay good wages to Joe the Transmission Assemblyman, won’t we all feel great about teaching those greedy corner-office guys a lesson?

Ahh, FlownOver – don’t you see? We are jumping on the jet issue because we also don’t think they should be earning 10K an hour. It is merely the easily visible tip of the iceberg, and if they had any clue at all, they would have kept it submerged. But they are so sheltered from reality that they really don’t have a clue…