David Brooks Admits Defeat, For Now

As the election came to a close, I wrote a story about the dismal aftermath for the GOP: A leaderless party, a battered brand, an issue set that seems outmoded, an abandonment of bedrock principles, etc. The list goes on, and depending on which Republican you are talking to rather varied. On one side, there are those who believe the solution for the Republican Party is to return to conservative basics. On the other side, there are those who think the Republican Party must become something new.

Today, in the New York Times, David Brooks, who is one of the “something new” crowd, lays out these two warring factions, and then admits defeat.

They are going to win, first, because Congressional Republicans are predominantly Traditionalists. Republicans from the coasts and the upper Midwest are largely gone. Among the remaining members, the popular view is that Republicans have been losing because they haven’t been conservative enough.

Second, Traditionalists have the institutions. Over the past 40 years, the Conservative Old Guard has built up a movement of activist groups, donor networks, think tanks and publicity arms. The reformists, on the other hand, have no institutions.

There is not yet an effective Republican Leadership Council to nurture modernizing conservative ideas. There is no moderate Club for Growth, supporting centrist Republicans. The Public Interest, which used to publish an array of public policy ideas, has closed. Reformist Republican donors don’t seem to exist. Any publication or think tank that headed in an explicitly reformist direction would be pummeled by its financial backers. National candidates who begin with reformist records — Giuliani, Romney or McCain — immediately tack right to be acceptable to the power base.

Brooks is dead on in a macro sense. But there are two things he leaves out. First, all this intraparty squabbling will be history if and when the Democrats start making mistakes. Think back to 2003 or 2005, when Democrats were in dissarray. They were healed less by any new policy paper than by repeated Republican catastrophes. Second, there is considerable room for middle ground. Even among those in the tradtionalist camp, people like Newt Gingrich and Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan, there is a considerable hunger for new ideas and policies that will address voter’s current concerns, without upsetting the old conservative coalition. The real fight to come is over this middle ground.

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  • 53_3

    Dumber than rocks, MS.
    .
    You still relentlessly refuse to discuss that elephant standing over your right shoulder.
    .
    That sack you are holding, and that his trunk is in, is labeled:
    .
    HATE

  • Andy from MA

    Yeah, well, so what? Not many people care about this. This is kinda like your Palin post, except no lipstick.
    .
    Why didn’t you include this link in your post?
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?hp
    .
    This says more about the decline and fall of the Republican party than David Brooks does.

  • http://www.ghostnote.com Cookie Puss

    Bitter.

  • jarais

    Second, there is considerable room for middle ground.
    Ha!

  • southernbell49

    I think you’re being simplistic.

    The Dems have been helped by the fact that most newly elected Dems in the last couple of election cycles have been centrists, with little appetite for idealogy.

    The GOP on the other hand is firmly controlled by the hardcore elements in their party, where how you do things is just as important as the end result.

    Also, younger voters as a whole do not care about the Repugs socially conservative agenda.

    I’d say the new model of the Repub party will eventually be someone like Tim Pawlenty, who verbally expresss himself to be a social conservative but in actuality doesn’t pursue a legislative agenda that focuses heavily at all on his “values”.

    Most Americans dislike idealogy and are results oriented, which is more in keeping with the current philosophy of more and more Dems in Congress.

  • 53_3

    Seriously though, I think that the analysis is right, but you and other Republicans are still stuck with this bad habit of avoiding the hate problem.
    .
    I’ve said it a million times on this blog, and will probably say it a million more until some of you get the message:
    .
    Conservatism does not need to be conflated with hatred. It’s time you addressed it.
    .
    You might find that your party will have a much brighter future!

  • chester9000

    Thanks for the canny political analysis, MS. Like the old Colt 45 ad with Billy Dee Williams says, “It works every time”: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1739251,00.html

  • Andy from MA

    Yeah, so what? Why didn’t you post this link?
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?hp
    .
    It tells more about the decline and fall of the Republican party than David Brooks does. It’s the demography, stupid.
    .
    The Republican brand can sell as successfully as a Ford Excursion can with gas prices @$4.00 per gallon.
    .
    You got anything else to write about, MS?

  • Cliff

    Mmmmmm, David Brooks’ tears taste sweet.
    .
    But seriously:
    Think back to 2003 or 2005, when Democrats were in dissarray. They were healed less by any new policy paper than by repeated Republican catastrophes.
    .
    What are you talking about? Do you remember the Blue Dogs vs. the rest of the Democrats? The DNC vs. the DLC? The clusterf–k of the Kerry campaign, where the central theme was “anyone but Bush”?
    What about the people, even now, saying that the Dem Congress daren’t enact a progressive agenda for fear of slurs from the right?
    The Dems haven’t healed and reformed into a GOP style monolith. They’re still busy finding their @sses with two index fingers.
    .
    Second, there is considerable room for middle ground.
    .
    Show me. Show me where there is middle ground between the far right and anyone else.

  • Andy from MA

    test

  • Andy from MA

    This link is better at explain the decline and fall of the Republican brand than David Brooks. It’s the demography

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?hp

  • 53_3

    BTW, MS:
    .
    Would you and your compatriots kindly stop trying to euphemize the issue? I mean, whatever coat of paint you put on a Baby Ruth, it’s still a Baby Ruth*!
    .
    “Traditionalist” my eye, MS. Call it what it is!
    .
    *refernced to the pool scene in Caddyshack

  • Andy from MA
  • http://www.ghostnote.com Cookie Puss

    Doody.

  • Andy from MA

    I think this link explains more about waning republican influence
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/politics/11south.html?hp

  • Paul-no not that one

    As long as Newt Gingrich is held as a “serious” person by the republican party they have little hope.
    No matter which side prevails, or if they find “middle ground”, they just aren’t serious anymore.
    .
    It will be Democratic success NOT failure that will allow for a republican resurgence.
    Just as in 2000. Times were so good that the people could be distracted by the trivial.

  • Andy from MA

    I think the article in the Times today on “The South a waning hold on politics” does not bode well for the Republicans

    The link keeps kicking me out. Sorry folks.

  • Andy from MA

    MS — I can’t help laugh out loud at your description of the AEI and other think tanks as the “brain trusts” of the GOP.
    .
    These guys all share the same brain. They’re so narrow minded their scratch pads are only an inch wide.
    .
    If life gets better for Americans in an Obama adminstration, what will the GOP have to offer? Not much.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Think back to 2003 or 2005, when Democrats were in dissarray.
    -
    There is absolutely no comparison.
    -
    The Dems were very close (ie, w/n a few hundred votes) of winning both the 00 and 04 presidential elections. And they had popular ideas, such as increasing the minimum wage and expanding health insurance.
    -
    There are no ideas in the Republican Party. The 27 percenters fund and staff their movement. I hope Crist or Pawlenty or someone manages to step up, because the national GOP is a vast wasteland.

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    “All this intraparty squabbling will be history if and when the Democrats start making mistakes.” Honestly, I’m not a writer hater, but that is pretty astonishingly wrong. No, it won’t. If the Democrats make mistakes, will the Dobson/Limbaugh/Hannity wing support a pro-choice candidate? If the Democrats make mistakes, will Mike Huckabee fly the U.S. Chamber of Commerce flag? You’re just flat-out wrong on this. McCain wanted to pick Lieberman or Ridge. It’s not that he didn’t. He couldn’t, Michael. He couldn’t. That hasn’t changed, and it won’t even if the Democrats make mistakes.

  • pierrogielunaire

    Sure the GOP could wait around for the Dems to make mistakes, but the scale of the mistakes would have to be enormous in order to sway public opinion for toward Republicans. The GOP has set the bar so low after eight years of Bush that the most basic competence will seem messianic in comparison.

    The other question is what issues do Republicans have that the majority of the electorate really cares about? To put it metaphorically, Republicans are arguing over how to improve the 8-track tape, but the country has moved on to DRM free downloads.

  • 53_3

    PNNTO:
    I am already seeing such a massive difference between the 2000 changeover and the this one there is no comparison. To wit:
    .
    I remember a meeting in March of last year, in which we had an important client, and representatives from two of our departments. The meeting was about tasks the client gave each of our groups.
    .
    We presented our product first, after having met 6 previous deadlines. Aferward, the other group made it’s presentation on it’s project. The difference was astounding. The atmosphere was tense, and the client had hard questions for the leader of that group. This guy then threw up his hands and said “Maybe you should find someone else to do it”.
    .
    My supervisor made a diving save (eventually to no avail, unfortunately) pointing out that our group had met these deadlines and indeed could handle the project given the other group.
    .
    The atmosphere changed from one of hostility and recrimination to one of freewheeling brainstorming, honest criticism, push and pull, and eventually, a repudiation of the other teams’ claim that it could not be done.
    .
    My point is that the 2000 and 2008 takovers offer similar contrasts, and it’s not all just Bush’s blame.
    .
    The GOP itself isn’t going to solve this by just pitching him overboard and steam along on the same course. They are going to have to start looking hard at that elephant in the room and doing something about it.
    .
    There is nothing wrong with conservatism, but there is a problem with hate!

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    This narrative happens to be mostly bogus at this point.

    The problem in a nutshell.

    The degree to which “Bush deviated from the Reagan Republican vision in spending, regulation and in empire,” is the degree to which such a vision never existed in the first place. It took a Democrat to balance the budget because only Democrats are honest about the fact that government spending isn’t free.

    More than at anytime in the last twenty years its become clear that the Palin wing of the Republicans are responding to a caricature developed during the Reagan years but made obsolete by the Clintons.
    I refer of course to the image of young Black men getting paid not to work. Such creatures may not be a factor in the real economy but they loom very large in the fevered imaginations of Palin fans. It’s not by accident that ‘redistribution’ and ‘socialist’ were the demons weilded by the McCain campaign in the final days. They knew exactly what wellspring they were tapping and if they weren’t sure, then Joe the Plumber was there to remind them.

    I worry that there isn’t a comfortable place for non-bigotted, sane Republicans to roost, but when David Frum is offered up as an example of a “reform” voice, I realize my concern is misplaced. Such people deserve their discomfort.

  • Andy from MA

    Paul Dirks wrote: “More than at anytime in the last twenty years its become clear that the Palin wing of the Republicans are responding to a caricature developed during the Reagan years but made obsolete by the Clintons.”

    Churchillian in its prose.

  • 53_3

    PNNTO:
    I am already seeing such a m@ssive difference between the 2000 changeover and the this one there is no comparison. To wit:
    .
    I remember a meeting in March of last year, in which we had an important client, and representatives from two of our departments. The meeting was about tasks the client gave each of our groups.
    .
    We presented our product first, after having met 6 previous deadlines. Aferward, the other group made it’s presentation on it’s project. The difference was astounding. The atmosphere was tense, and the client had hard questions for the leader of that group. This guy then threw up his hands and said “Maybe you should find someone else to do it”.
    .
    My supervisor made a diving save (eventually to no avail, unfortunately!) pointing out that our group had met these deadlines and indeed could handle the project given the other group.
    .
    The atmosphere changed from one of hostility and recrimination to one of freewheeling brainstorming, honest criticism, push and pull, and eventually, a repudiation of the other teams’ claim that it could not be done.
    .
    My point is that the 2000 and 2008 takovers offer similar contrasts, and it’s not all just Bush’s fault.
    .
    The GOP itself isn’t going to solve this by just pitching Bush overboard and steam along on the same course. They are going to have to start looking hard at that elephant in the room and doing something about it.
    .
    There is nothing wrong with conservatism, but there is a problem with h@te!

  • 53_3

    Got caught by the word ‘mazzive’, of all things!

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Hahahaha.
    .
    [laughing and pointing]
    .
    Complete repudiation and utter disarray is good news for republicans.
    .
    What I find most amusing about Bobo’s column, and MS’s summary of how it’s good for republicans that all their “ideas” and “principles” turned out to be lies when they got into power, is that they talk about new policies and new ideas.
    .
    But they don’t have any. Or, at least, they don’t write any down for us to read (forestalling more laughing and pointing for a while, it’s true).
    .
    One new idea is to concede that blastocysts aren’t toddlers, so contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy should be encouraged. And stem cell research makes a whole lot of sense to subsidize.
    .
    Oops.
    .
    Another new idea is that the US can’t afford and doesn’t need to be on a war footing anymore.
    .
    Oops.
    .
    It is, I claim, literally impossible to come up with a new idea that is acceptable to a majority of conservatives. And since it turned out that the old ones don’t get implemented, they’re kinda [that word Joe Scarborough said yesterday]ed.

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    Can Newt Gingrich even spell “principle”? As for ideas, there are whelks out there that could offer a more appealing conservative agenda!

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    @jay – You forgot about a little think I like to call “Drill, Baby Drill!” I drink your Saudi Sheik!

  • Cliff

    They’re so narrow minded their scratch pads are only an inch wide.
    .
    Can’t discuss diplomacy because then we’d be soft on terror.
    .
    Can’t discuss ending the War on Drugs because then we’d be decadent (or something)
    .
    Can’t discuss green economies because they’d hurt business.
    .
    Can’t discuss global warming because it doesn’t exist.
    .
    Can’t discuss Pentagon spending because we need strong defense.
    .
    Can’t discuss the poor because then we’d be socialist.
    .
    Can’t discuss education, because it’s not part of the free market.
    .
    Can’t discuss healthcare because it would hurt the free market.
    .
    Can’t discuss FISA because then we’d be soft on terror.
    .
    And so on, and so on, and so on…

  • Andy from MA

    53_3: when you are a member of a cult, and a cult is what the GOP has become IMHO, you can’t question the core beliefs of the cult without the risk of being cast out. I’m sure Lincoln Chaffee or Chris Shays who have been tarred with RINO (republican in name only) could valid date that. The so-called big tent is now smaller than a twentieth century phone booth.
    .
    You are correct about the elephant in the room. It’s why McCain was so upset in the campaign and the debates that the 2000 GOP playbook yielded different results when he used it in 2008. You could almost hear him scream “this is supposed to work for me. It did for Bush.”
    .
    Look at the cast of characters in the GOP. Fasten your seatbelts. It’s going to be a bumpy ride.

  • Paul-no not that one

    53_3, my point was simply that the republicans just aren’t serious people and haven’t been for a while.
    .
    Their national electoral success has been the result of trivia (President Clinton’s zipper begat “honor and dignity”) and fear ( 9-11 so Max Cleland can be turned into Bin Laden.
    .
    The trivia only can work if people don’t have real issues they want addressed and fear has a shelf life.
    .
    If the republican answer to Universal Health Care and Minimum Wage is teh Gays! then they are staying where they are until times get better.

  • g_crush

    .
    MS: First, all this intraparty squabbling will be history if and when the Democrats start making mistakes.
    .
    Yes, to some small extent. Those mistakes will have to be freakin’ huge, ‘tho.
    .
    Think back to 2003 or 2005, when Democrats were in dissarray. They were healed less by any new policy paper than by repeated Republican catastrophes.
    .
    lol…So the Dems won in 2006 and 2008 not because their platform was right, it was because the Repubs shot themselves in their footsies.
    .
    Second, there is considerable room for middle ground.
    .
    Between the center-right and the far right? No, not really. The Palin Repubs tend toward absolutism while the McCain Repubs (and a few other moderates) have largely been marginalized. The far right isn’t going to move far from where they currently are; they don’t have to.
    .
    Even among those in the tradtionalist camp, people like Newt Gingrich and Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan, there is a considerable hunger for new ideas and policies that will address voter’s current concerns, without upsetting the old conservative coalition.
    .
    There are going to be very few new ideas coming out of the right wing that aren’t:
    .
    1) The equivalent of putting lipstick on a pig, i.e. changing verbiage to something that sounds more positive, and/or
    2) Adaptations of lefty positions, only with a conservative twist: “Abstinence: Safest, Legal-est, and Extremely Rare”.
    .
    The real fight to come is over this middle ground.
    .
    The first fight, you mean. The the winners get to take on the rest of the population.

  • Paul-no not that one

    53_3 I responded to you but it is in moderation for reasons I cannot decern.
    Good thing it was fixed on Monday the 3rd, just as we were told it would be.

  • Andy from MA

    PNNTO — Good thing it was fixed on Monday the 3rd, just as we were told it would be.
    .
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    .
    Welcome to Swampland where revisionist history is our most important product.

  • 53_3

    High Sherrifs:
    .
    Here, let me help you:
    .
    Public Function detectPottyMouth( inString As String ) As Boolean
    .
    ..Dim bFlag as Boolean
    .
    ..if ( ( index( azz, instring ) = 0 ) then
    …. bFlag = true
    ..else


    ..end if
    .
    ..Set detectPottyMouth – bFlag
    .
    End Function
    .
    Yeah, it’s crude, not a lot of thought put in it, but, my point is, if I can do it, so can you!

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Off topic
    .
    pourme
    .
    looks like Bill Clinton wasn’t calling around for Lieberman after all
    .
    I wonder if Lieberman himself might have put that rumor out.
    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/11/clintons-deny-pushing-for_n_142982.html

  • Hammerlock

    There’s an easy two-point plan to getting Republicans elected again, in the Congress/Senate if not the White House:
    .
    1) Ditch the uber-social conservatives. Or at least marginalize them. Their platform is all wedge issues, so it boils down to simply hate politics. This does not promote you as a positive force for America.
    .
    2) Go back to Goldwater and small government, and really mean it. People are really angry at the wanton spending and mas5ive debts incurred by the neocon administration. PayGo, progressive taxes, governmentall efficiency win hearts and minds in New England as well as Oklahoma.
    .
    There, GOP saved. If Dobson complains, tell him that the Almighty is nice, but She’s not a registered voter.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You could almost hear him scream “this is supposed to work for me. It did for Bush.”

    That is indded the biggest news of the campaign. It didn’t work.

    http://phd9.blogspot.com/2008/11/i-find-this-remarkable.html

    Obama currently enjoys a 70/25 favorability rating. In other words, in spite of all the negative campaigning, only 25% of Americans actually drank the Kool-aid. I find that extremely encouraging.

  • 53_3

    I’ve just tried to help them, but I think I used the wrong string function. Oh well.
    .
    But really, if they are such high powered programmers and trubbleshooters and all that, all the need to do is look at the code’s context. It doesn’t even really matter what code it is, either. The fix may be somewhat more complicated than that, but hey, it certainly isn’t something that some crack programmer, deep in the bowels of their office, couldn’t figure out in an hour or two!
    .
    I think they just don’t wanna…

  • Andy from MA

    Hanmmerlock — Forgive me, but why do you even put this stuff out there? Some up and comer may read this blog and act on this lucid strategy. Please they don’t need our help. Find a heavy object instead and toss it to them. Like being anti-immigration for example.

  • Andy from MA

    53_3: they’re probably busy updating resumes and visiting Dice.com to post for jobs.

  • g_crush

    .
    53_3: Yeah, it’s crude, not a lot of thought put in it, but, my point is, if I can do it, so can you!
    .
    It’s WordPress. There’s a Comment Moderation box where people enter in those verboten words and the app takes it over from there. Must use some form of Like statement, I’m guessing.

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    @sgw – Bill doesn’t like to be crossed. Lieberman wakes up with horsehead, sez I.

  • Hammerlock

    Andy–if an up-and-comer decides to act on that, the Dobson’s, Hannity’s, and Rush’s of the GOP will do the heavy object tossing for me. It’s really more of a statement on how simple the solution is for the GOP–and how utterly unable they are to enacting it.
    .
    Like fat guys standing having to decide between a salad bar and a buffet, they just can’t help themselves.

  • 53_3

    PNNTO:
    Eventually, when all the other rancid crud at the bottom of the swamp finally surfaces, you reply will probably surface amongst the muck and some of my other posts, too.
    .
    Unless KT is around, and is in saviour-mode…

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    There’s a Comment Moderation box where people enter in those verboten words and the app takes it over from there

    Do you suppose that simply including leading and trailing spaces in the string could fix everything.

    ” a$$ “

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    ?

  • Andy from MA

    Hammerlock: that’s quite a visual. Point taken!

  • kbanginmotown

    @PaulDirks: The only trouble with the 70/25 favorability rating is that the 25%ers didn’t just drink the kool-aid, they bathed, swam and practically OD’ed on it. The 25%ers are a *serious* shade of red. That’s troubling.
    .
    Turning the US economy around is going to take at least a year; I hope that BHO can enlist some cool heads among the GOP moderates to keep the wolves at bay while he corrects course.

  • 53_3

    Yeah, forgot ‘Like’ and SQL.
    .
    But hecks, they ain’t paying me, so why should I take all the fun of having to scutify the code out of it?

  • sue_n

    53_3 has it exactly right. If the Republicans ever hope to be a truly national party again, they first have to stop pitting segments of the nation against each other, and they’ve got to stop tapping into hate and fear as political drivers. I would like to think this election proved that people are tired of that.

    It would also help if they could get over their love affair with the past (Ronald Reagan is dead; deal with it), get a grip on the present and start thinking about the future. You know, new ideas and such.

    Yeah, I’m sure they’ll get right on that.

  • g_crush

    .
    Hammerlock: If Dobson complains, tell him that the Almighty is nice, but She’s not a registered voter.
    .
    But millions of Her believers are, and the GOP can’t win without that support…’cause without that old-tyme religion, the far right thinks the Repubs are just Democratic Party Lite.

  • sy2d

    While we are on the topic of strawmen, and their inevitable debunking …

    Media ‘In the Tank’ for Obama? Studies Don’t Prove It (So Far) — And Here’s Why

    Greg Mitchell

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/media-in-the-tank-for-oba_b_142969.html

    This past Sunday, with the race for the White House finally over, Deborah Howell, the Washington Post ombudsman, examined the results of her paper’s study of the fairness of its own election coverage in the past year. Soon articles, or links, relating to her piece were carrying headlines suggesting that the study had found that the Post had clearly “tilted” to Obama (this was Howell’s, and HuffPost’s, headline) or even showed a “major tilt” to Obama (that’s how Mark Halperin at his “The Page” blog at Time.com had it, as did many others, especially conservative outlets).

    On top of the widely-publicized results of the recent Project for Excellence in Journalism news coverage survey, this seemed to amount to a slam dunk proving press bias against McCain.

    But is that really what these studies show? It’s an important question because once any conventional wisdom is set, it is almost impossible to dislodge it.

    It may yet turn out that major, exhaustive studies will prove that the media were grossly unfair to John McCain. Bring them on. But the current studies don’t do that.

    Since it’s the latest, let me stick close to Howell’s report here.

    First, like the PEJ survey, the numbers are thrown off by the fact that both studies found that “horse race” angles (including polling) thoroughly dominated the overall coverage in their samples — 57% of the stories in the PEJ and much higher than that in the Post’s study (1,295 horse-race stories and only 594 “issues” stories).

    This disgraceful proportion is worth its own critique about the media’s priorities, but the fact is: Except for a week after the end of the GOP convention, before Palin-mania collapsed, Obama was ahead in the polls, eventually by a lot, and he always led in the fundraising (overwhelmingly), in the size of his crowds (ditto), and in putting more states in play. He couldn’t help but lead in favorable coverage — if that coverage was thoroughly dominated by “horse race” angles (and it was). And McCain had to gain mainly “unfavorable” coverage.

    My complaint about the Post and PEJ handling of their own results is not that they ignored this but that they did not make that key aspect clear at the very top of their analysis, not a few paragraphs down and without (in my view) enough emphasis. It is unquestionably the single leading factor affecting both studies.

    So we will be reading for years about the strong media “bias” against McCain — look at all those “unfavorable” stories about him — when it was mainly (although perhaps not completely) a matter of Obama leading the horse race and getting credit for that by reporters who were, surprise, not deaf, dumb and blind. Does anyone doubt that if McCain had roared to the lead in October and stayed ahead until the end that the results of the studies would have been completely different?

    Yes, the press is biased — in favor of recognizing who is winning and stating that (perhaps too often).

    Also: Can the media be faulted if one candidate is committing the major share of gaffes or (in this age of fact-check sites) making the most inaccurate statements in speeches and in ads? Is it “bias” to recognize that? Or to vet a candidate for vice president who (we now know) had not been vetted by anyone else?

    The Washington Post study did find an editorial/op-ed tilt to Obama, but opinion sections or TV programs (Fox’s or MSNBC’s primetime lineups) are inherently biased and should be disregarded in judging day-to-day news coverage — plus, as Howell pointed out, part of the reason for the Post’s imbalance was that a number of conservative writers for the paper grew critical of McCain. You can’t make pundits who generally support one party back a candidate from that party they think is weak.

    Then there’s this. Howell dryly relates one seemingly significant gap in the number of news stories on each candidate, going back to last November: 946 stories about Obama compared with McCain’s 786. But this can be easily explained by the fact that McCain’s primary race ended almost four months before Obama’s! Of course, there were more stories about Obama from March to June — thanks to Hillary Clinton’s spirited fight.

    Howell does point this out, but buries this crucial explanation. Actually, it’s amazing that the gap between Obama and McCain in this one-year period was not far wider.

    What about from June 4 (when Obama clinched the nomination) to Election Day? Howell reveals, “the tally was Obama, 626 stories, and McCain, 584. Obama was on the front page 176 times, McCain, 144 times; 41 stories featured both.” A “major” tilt?

    And more counting: “Obama was in 311 Post photos and McCain in 282… Obama led 133 to 121 in pictures more than three columns wide, 178 to 161 in smaller pictures, and 164 to 133 in color photos. In black and white photos, the nominees were about even, with McCain at 149 and Obama at 147. On Page 1, they were even at 26 each.” Again: This is a “major tilt”?

    Then there’s this example. The New York Times carried a top of the front page piece on Obama one morning in October. A good thing, right? Not exactly. The lengthy story resurrected his Bill Ayers connection. That issue, dormant for months, suddenly revived and, in fact, became a focus of the McCain-Palin campaign for weeks — with the Times (normally hated by the GOP) cited as the authoritative source. So: a prominent story about a candidate might look swell in some of the tallies but is not necessarily a good thing in reality.

    Finally: When one talks about “the media” being “in the tank” for one candidate, what is the definition of “media”? Consider that tens of millions of Americans claim they get virtually all of their news from talk radio. Others rely mainly on Web sites with clear political leanings, or The Daily Show, or SNL. Is this all “media” or does only “elite media” count?

    PEJ and the Post can claim that they can only put the tallies out there, they can’t control how pundits and reporters interpret or spin them or what they write in their headlines. True enough. But those who produce the findings need to explain clearly, and right at the top, what exactly was tallied, the “horse race” context, and other crucial factors, such as providing a list of which articles were viewed as favorable or unfavorable for a candidate so others can judge their standards.

    Strong bias in news coverage of the 2008 campaign may yet be shown — but it’s not proven so far.

  • 53_3

    Paul Dirks:
    What did that other five percent drink?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    that the 25%ers didn’t just drink the kool-aid, they bathed, swam and practically OD’ed on it.

    I know, but I offer up the information for Michael for those moments when he’s tempted to think he’s providing a journalistic service by reporting on their favorite color of M&M.

  • shepherdwong

    “On the other side, there are those who think the Republican Party must become something new.”

    If you mean something other than a Trojan Horse for rich assh*les such as Richard Melon Scaiff to invade and degrade government so they can avoid taxes and regulation, yes, put me down as one of those.

    Republicans were rejected because THEY CAN’T GOVERN! Tax cuts and deregulation (“conservatism”) are not governing philosophies. Strategic wars of aggression, occupation and war-profiteering, populating government with incompetent corporatist cronies and forcing young women to bear children against their will aren’t either. New lipstick won’t pretty up that pig.

  • g_crush

    .
    Paul Dirks:
    .
    Do you suppose that simply including leading and trailing spaces in the string could fix everything.
    .
    True, but then you have to keep maintaining it for every a$$hat, a$$hole, a$$clown, and a$$munch that wants to provide their own Very Special Potty Word.

  • JJ

    Brooks:”They tend to take global warming seriously. They tend to be intrigued by the way David Cameron has modernized the British Conservative Party.”

    The US GOP has got a long way to go to get to David Cameron on climate change.

  • 53_3

    You know, PD, maybe they should just throw up their hands and actually allow us to say ‘azz’, rather than chase down every nuance and intimation of it.
    .
    I mean, it’s not that bad a word, like the f-bomb. Besides, its the colloquial name for a species of mammal, and it’s also in the Bible!

  • Hammerlock

    g_crush: True, but the problem the GOP faces is that while the hard-core christians (call them Dominionists, Evangelicals, whatever) are a significant block, they are also not sufficient to win elections with if the rest of the demographics are alienated or outraged.
    .
    In other words, the party needs to be more than “Christian Nation, under G0D!”–there are issues that affect a LOT more people than abortion and keeping those ebil gays disenfranchised–like foreign policy, the economy, and health care. Focusing on those Real Issues that affect virtually EVERYONE and you see your chances to be elected rocket upwards, since you’re using this thing I like to call “broad appeal.” When your bank of potential voters consists of 60-80% of the electorate instead of 30-45%, things look a tad rosier.
    .
    Or they can stay the course and try to run on anti-gay politics until the rapture happens, and the only time they’ll ever get elected is when the democrats drop the ball significantly. But if your only hope of getting elected depends on the other guy screwing up, that doesn’t speak highly of your potency as a national party and driving philosophy–quite the opposite.

  • Hammerlock

    Take two; I forgot that like the GOP, the modbot dislikes g@y.
    .
    g_crush: True, but the problem the GOP faces is that while the hard-core christians (call them Dominionists, Evangelicals, whatever) are a significant block, they are also not sufficient to win elections with if the rest of the demographics are alienated or outraged.
    .
    In other words, the party needs to be more than “Christian Nation, under G0D!”–there are issues that affect a LOT more people than abortion and keeping those ebil g@ys disenfranchised–like foreign policy, the economy, and health care. Focusing on those Real Issues that affect virtually EVERYONE and you see your chances to be elected rocket upwards, since you’re using this thing I like to call “broad appeal.” When your bank of potential voters consists of 60-80% of the electorate instead of 30-45%, things look a tad rosier.
    .
    Or they can stay the course and try to run on anti-g@y politics until the rapture happens, and the only time they’ll ever get elected is when the democrats drop the ball significantly. But if your only hope of getting elected depends on the other guy screwing up, that doesn’t speak highly of your potency as a national party and driving philosophy–quite the opposite.

  • 53_3

    basil:
    .
    I think more than a few spirochetes might be able to supply them with useful advice too.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Go back to Goldwater and small government, and really mean it.
    .
    The point Hammerlock is they don’t mean it, didn’t mean it and have never meant it. Their real policy position is that the government should be used to supply taxpayer dollars to capital holders, and not to wage earners.
    .
    Once you understand this, it all makes sense. They can’t say this out loud, but that is the underlying policy position. The privateering of government functions to contractors; opposition to SS, Medicare, CHIPS; removal of regulation; exploitation of the environment; giving away the broadcast spectrum…..
    .
    All of it is about the government as an instrument to get more money into the hands of capital holders at the expense of wage earners.
    .
    this is not a popular program, but it is good for raising money to run ad campaigns that characterize it as something else.

  • 53_3

    Hammerlock:
    I think the g@y path is meandering down the same path as minority rights has.
    .
    Eventually, you meet enough people, and you realize that they aren’t the hideous, snaggle-toothed, un-American, freakazoid monsters that the GOP paints them and everyone else to be.
    .
    It seems to me that when you and your surrogates label something like 63% of the total US population (white liberals, minotities, g@ys, atheists, and non-Christians), you might lose a few freinds.
    .
    And not a few elections…

  • 53_3

    Hammerlock:
    The ‘you’ is figurative. I mean them.
    .
    Apologies if taken the worng way!

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    You know, PD, maybe they should just throw up their hands and actually allow us to say ‘azz’, rather than chase down every nuance and intimation of it.
    .
    or they could just turn it off, and put up a disclaimer. I actually have no problem with heavily moderated sites–FDL was that way when I was there a lot. But then the site has to be, you know, moderated, with someone in charge, all the time, of reading and releasing iffy threads.
    .
    And making periodic announcements reminding people what the posting rules are.
    .
    We haven’t heard any indication of why the A$$ume that this must be a compa$$ion-free area in order to pa$$ legal (The law is an a$$) and corporate muster.

  • 53_3

    “Their real policy position is that the government should be used to supply taxpayer dollars to capital holders, and not to wage earners.”
    .
    Jayack, I think that is absolutely true. They didn’t say so, but they saw an opportunity for establishing an oligarchy. Democratic in name, but an oligarchy nonetheless.
    .
    They hijacked all the planks of the GOP to do it, too.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “Think back to 2003 or 2005, when Democrats were in dissarray. ”
    .
    Yes, yes…were they too partisan or to typically weak? I forget.
    .
    “Better now to draft policies that address the new concerns of the middle class: economic stagnation, environmental protection and health-care reform.”
    .
    Einstein, they already have policies that address these issues: capital gains tax cuts, deny global warming OR let the free markets handle it, let the free market handle it. Did you even for a second consider challenging Norquist as to what these new policies would be?
    .
    Vote Yes on Michael Scherer go f@ck yourself!

  • beccabyrd

    Once we step foot into the 21st century on inaugural day, today’s GOP will be all the more glaringly obsolete.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    No no no 53.
    .
    You’re missing the point.
    .
    there is no hijacking going on. That IS the GOP.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “Think back to 2003 or 2005, when Democrats were in dissarray. ”
    .
    Yes, yes…were they too partisan or to typically weak? I forget.
    .
    “Better now to draft policies that address the new concerns of the middle cl@ss: economic stagnation, environmental protection and health-care reform.”
    .
    Einstein, they already have policies that address these issues: capital gains tax cuts, deny global warming OR let the free markets handle it, let the free market handle it. Did you even for a second consider challenging Norquist as to what these new policies would be?
    .
    Vote Yes on Michael Scherer go f@ck yourself!

  • Hammerlock

    Jay–you’re absolutely correct. My point is that if they want to get elected, they should actually give it an honest shot. When Gingrich got in after ’94 and started slashing at all the useless cr@p that had accumulated around DC (remember the infamous ice buckets?) he was regarded as visionary. Its only when they started replacing the old cr@p with their new cr@p that the GOP brand started its downward spiral.
    .
    And it touches as to the real reason they cannot follow the two point plan: they will not do it because it is not what they believe in–to paraphrase: its the oligarchy, $tupid.

  • stuartzechman

    Middle Middle Middle!

    Center Center Center!

    Let’s see, are there any more Village dictates contained in Michael Scherer’s Serious discussion of the perpetually wrong Brooks…?

    Oh, I’ve got one right here, contained in this laughable lament:

    “There is not yet an effective Republican Leadership Council to nurture modernizing conservative ideas. There is no moderate Club for Growth, supporting centrist Republicans.”

    We get it! The solution to any political parties’ traumas is…wait for it…wait for it…more Centrism! It’s “new”!

    I guess Centrism is what got Newt Gingrich into power after Bill Clinton’s Centrist Democratic (corporatist) Leadership Council failed him…oh, wait–Bill Clinton’s problem was obviously that he must have been “tacking too far to the left”.

    I guess a lack of Centrism is what got Democrats defeated in 2004, and wholesale adoption of its principles must have got them elected to run Congress in 2006.

    This is a still Center-right country, after all. Everybody knows that, at least in the cocktail-weenie circuit.

    Seriously, Michael Scherer. Is it ever possible for you and your cohort to contemplate that, apart from Beltway elites, there really is no popular constituency for Centrism whatsoever? You know, that the culture of different regions in the country during differing periods may have something to do with these populations’ identification with rightist or leftist ideologies?

    None of these recent and not-so-recent political events should cause movement conservatives to cry out for “Centrist Leadership Councils” in any way.

    How exactly does Brooks “nail it”? Brooks can’t seem to admit that there simply are more people who feel that their lives have been worsened by the empowerment of conservative ideologues than those who culturally identify with that movement, and are willing to ignore their blunders no matter how colossal. The regions of the country where European-American majorities voted Republican in this election did so because they simply did what they always do: they voted for representation of themselves via populist, regionalist expressions of movement conservatism –their “ethnicity”. These people will always vote for hardcore movement conservatives, especially in hard times. It’s analogous to the Kurds voting for the Kurdish National parties in Iraq. The more the threat of majority cultural or economic hegemony, the more that these identifications resonate. It’s not exactly rocket science to figure that out, and yet professional imbeciles like Brooks make a living ignoring reality in favor of what the Beltway class prefers.

    It’s truly disheartening to witness a man as bright and talented as Scherer go along with this nonsense. There is no popular mandate for Centrism in this country, and there never has been. The sooner that the professional Centrist ideologues in our political press corps openly acknowledge that they’ve been playing a losing game for the past two decades selling that ideology to the uncommitted, low-information, low-activity, ever-shrinking segment of the American electorate, the sooner we can begin to have an intelligent discussion about politics.

  • stuartzechman

    What in God’s name requires my last post to sit idly waiting for “moderation”?

  • JJ

    Their real policy position is that the government should be used to supply taxpayer dollars to capital holders, and not to wage earners.
    .
    I recently got a hold of Irving Kristol’s Reagan era essay arguing that practically all the professions except for entrepreneurs and corporations represented a “new class”, which threatened to demand out of control big government.
    .
    Irving Kristol may have left his Totskyist days behind him, but his theory of class war was basically warmed over Marx via James Burnham, which said “hey, billionaires, gimme some money for my think tanks or the dirty hippies (read: everyone except for business) will move in and ask for everything under the sun.”
    .
    And Institutionalized Nixonianism was born. Here’s Paul Krugman on Perlstein’s Nixonland:
    .
    Here’s what [Nixonland] *doesn’t* say, which isn’t a criticism. What happened, very crucially, was that Nixonism got institutionalized. The creation of a set of institutions – think-tanks, media organizations, all of it funded by a relatively small number of sources (it really comes down to about six angry billionaires, when all is said and done), creating a structure which perpetuates the political style and political goals that were created during these years. Rick has written a lot about the American Enterprise Institute, but not here – AEI was transformed into what we know today towards the end of the period that Rick covers here.

    http://www.henryfarrell.net/nixonland.pdf

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Hammerlock–
    .
    There is no old cr@p or new cr@p. It’s the same stuff. 2000-2006 is the republican program. They just didn’t have all three branches locked up before.
    .
    They can’t replace it with the stuff in the marketing slogans, because “shrinking government,” “fiscal responsibility” and “strong and effective defense” doesn’t advance their program. Their program is, pure and simple, graft. Wrapped in a flag and stuck with a cross pin.

  • nibblybits

    David Brooks has reason to be depressed. Look, for instance, at the outstanding GA senatorial race, about to go to a runoff next month. The Repub candidate is a slug, among the worst of the worst. Knowing already that one more Repub senator wouldn’t make much difference, they should let this slug go and try to find a better more moderate, or at least more ethical, candidate for the next go-around. A do over, in a sense. But no. No less than Mitt Romney and John McCain is gonna go down there and stand next to the turd, and try to give him some of their shine. They could let the jerk die, and try to re-build the Repub Party with some decent candidates, but no, they just can’t help but go down the path of destruction. So let them.
    .
    Likely, Jim Martin will win, and maybe the Repubs will get another chance. But the fact that they don’t toss Chambliss over when they can pretty much means they don’t want their party to reform. They are perfectly happy sticking with the anti-gay marriage, immigration, women’s equality, anti-everything but God crowd. So foolish.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    JayAck and HammerLock are correct, it was all about the oligarchy. Through sheer mendacity, identity politics and with the help of a feckless and compliant media, they convinced uneducated, low IQ white voters to go along w/ the corporate welfare program. Exhibit A:
    .
    If the rich man didn’t spend his cash on cars and boats and planes
    There’d be a lot of average Joe’s out of work today
    His dollar helps America’s economy to thrive
    The rich man keeps the working man working and alive
    .
    Chorus
    Trickle down, trickle down let the money trickle down
    It won’t do anybody good buried in the ground
    Trickle down, trickle down let the money spread around
    And one day it’ll be my turn and mine will trickle down
    .

    If we take away his revenue with taxes that are high
    Then he won’t take the chance and put his money on the line
    But give him the incentive let him reap the benefits
    The cash will grow and so it goes and everybody wins
    .
    Repeat Chorus
    .
    The rich man is the engine of the economic train
    So won’t you please be careful where you try to put the blame
    Some say the rich are selfish that they’re only greedy snobs
    But when’s the last time a poor man gave you a job
    -The Right Brothers
    http://www.therightbrothers.com/index2.php

  • JJ

    Their real policy position is that the government should be used to supply taxpayer dollars to capital holders, and not to wage earners.
    .
    I recently got a hold of Irving Kristol’s Reagan era essay arguing that practically all the professions except for entrepreneurs and corporations represented a “new cl@ss”, which threatened to demand out of control big government.
    .
    Irving Kristol may have left his Totskyist days behind him, but his theory of cl@ss war was basically warmed over Marx via James Burnham, which said “hey, billionaires, gimme some money for my think tanks or the dirty hippies (read: everyone except for business) will move in and ask for everything under the sun.”
    .
    And Institutionalized Nixonianism was born. Here’s Paul Krugman on Perlstein’s Nixonland:
    .
    Here’s what [Nixonland] *doesn’t* say, which isn’t a criticism. What happened, very crucially, was that Nixonism got institutionalized. The creation of a set of institutions – think-tanks, media organizations, all of it funded by a relatively small number of sources (it really comes down to about six angry billionaires, when all is said and done), creating a structure which perpetuates the political style and political goals that were created during these years. Rick has written a lot about the American Enterprise Institute, but not here – AEI was transformed into what we know today towards the end of the period that Rick covers here.
    http://www.henryfarrell.net/nixonland.pdf

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    And I gladly stand up,
    next to you and defend her still today.
    ‘cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
    God bless the USA.
    - Paul Wolfowitz

  • fense

    Does everyone else notice that when times were good (2000), the Republicans said the time to cut taxes on the wealthy was when times were good, because we could afford it. Now that times are bad, they say that the time to cut taxes for the wealthy is when times are bad. They’ve lost any credibility they had.
    .
    Since they have no credibility, all they can do is run on hate.

  • 53_3

    Jayack:
    True, but it’s a distinction without a difference.
    .
    I look at the mechanics of American politics like this:
    .
    On issues of taxation, size of government, who should benefit as an American, and how we should conduct ourselves abroad as issues that have two sides.
    .
    The dems have already gravitated to one pole of each of these issues, and truly do represent the people’s will. Ideologies can’t take hold easily because we are not tightly and rigidly orgainized enough to support them.
    .
    The GOP gravitated to the other poles on these issues, which I consider a legitamate condition, but the GOP is very susceptible to the influences of ideologies and thus all of their postions are easily corruptable for other purposes.
    .
    It’s true, and I don’t dispute that, but in order for the GOP to be a real, legitemate opposition force, they need to dump their ideologies, which are what leads them down these roads.

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    The GOP doesn’t need to dump its ideology; they need to broaden their view. At its core, conservatism is about individualism. Where the GOP fails is in refusing to see how the deck is stacked against individualism by forces of institution and convention. Instead of reshuffling the deck, they just keep blaming the loser and upping the house odds.

  • JJ

    Of course now, Palin is the ultimate Orthogonian. They made their bed…

  • 53_3

    fense:
    I’ve always felt that the problem is with ideologies. They have a tendancy to only function effectively under “fair weather” conditions.
    .
    Unfortunately, the dot com debacle wasn’t (and still isn’t) considered a warning about what eventually came next (the current economic disaster).
    .
    So when someone sees plenty of resources around (like in 2000), there’s an urge to use ‘em for one’s own benefit. To the powerful go the spoils, so to speak. That’s where ideologies come in. They are designed to encourage people that it is in their best interests to let the ones reaching out for the spoils to grab ‘em before someone else does (the other side i.e. the democrats).

  • Paul-no not that one

    1 Titles Found | Items 1 – 1 Displayed
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    Click Here for
    Printer Friendly Version

    or

    Artist : Hank Williams Jr.

    Title : Mccain Palin Tradition

    Album : N/A

    Genre : Country

    Email this page
    to a friend

    The left wing liberal media have
    Always been a real close knit family
    But, most of the American People
    Don’t believe em anyway ya see
    Stop and think it over
    Before you make your decision
    If they smell something
    They’re gonna come down strong
    It’s a McCain – Palin tradition

    Now this old Union’s got problems
    That is plain to see
    The Democrats bankrupted Fannie Mae N Freddie Mac
    Just like 1, 2, 3
    The bankers didn’t want to make all those bad loans,
    But Bill Clinton said you got to
    Now they want a bail out, what I’m talking about
    Is a Democrat liberal who doo
    .
    Spawn of Hank Williams

  • Cliff

    At its core, conservatism is about individualism.
    .
    When conservatives say “individualism,” I think they mean they want business people to be able to explore whatever strategies they want. If a poor person wants some individuality, they should be instructed on proper box-dwelling etiquette.
    .
    I saw Glenn Beck talking to Bill O’Reilly last night, and one of them asked where all the rugged individuals have gone. This nearly made me burst a blood vessel in my eye.

  • 53_3

    Hank Williams is a old white guy who happens to be a pretty good musician.
    .
    Hedubblehockeysticks, I’m a old “white” guy (I’m actually Norweigan, not “white”) too, and am not that good a musician.
    .
    But I do manage to filter my facts at least pazzably well!

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    It depends on who is saying it, of course. There is a legitimate “teach a man to fish” component to conservative that is valid. There is also the current flavor: “I’ve got mine. Get yours,” with a total blindness to the “born on third base” concept.

  • g_crush

    .
    Hammerlock: ..the party needs to be more than “Christian Nation, under G0D!”
    .
    There’s only two directions they can go ideologically; further down the right-wing rabbit hole or left towards the Dems. Either way, there’s sizable chunks of their loose coalition of constituents that will be less than enthusiastic.
    .
    Then again, I don’t really care if the GOP thrives or collapses into itself like some wingnut singularity…

  • Cliff

    Hedubblehockeysticks, I’m a old “white” guy (I’m actually Norweigan, not “white”) too
    .
    Two questions: What’s the difference between “white” and “Norwegian”?
    .
    How do you know so much about the black community? (This is coming from one of the threads yesterday. I’m honestly curious, because you seem to have a better grasp of that part of the populace than many.)

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    At its core, conservatism is about individualism.
    -
    That’s a pretty thoughtful and promising point, Mr. Coffee.
    -
    It won’t gain traction in today’s GOP, though. Maybe there’s some mythical ur-conservatism that would recognize the validity of what you’re saying. But here in the US, anyone who said anything like that would have Grover Norquist and the Club of Growth runnings ads against him ten seconds later.

  • 53_3

    Here’s a way to look at the GOP and the Dems:
    .
    They are both fast cars, loaded with features.
    .
    Mr. Ideology has a hard time hot wiring the Dem car. Way too complicated.
    .
    The GOP, on the other hand, is sitting there, with the door wide open, and the keys on the seat.
    .
    Mr. Ideology grabs the keys, settles into the bucket seats, closes the door, fires her up, and speeds off.
    .
    Being a very, very lowzy driver, he soon winds up upside down in a ditch somewhere out in the burbs, upside down, with the left front tire still slowly spinning, and the radiator blowing steam everywhere with a loud hiss.

  • Ohg Rea Tone

    We feel sorry for the Republicans. Sarah Palin represents everything that is wrong with America. ………..

    http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/11/11/palin-everything-that-is-wrong-with-america/

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    The thing that Reagan got right, and he got it so right it will never be topped, was coupling conservatism with optimism. Whatever the GOP does, it better get that message. If they are retreating to more sharply calibrate their reasons why the rest of us are sinners and saps, then goodbye for a long time.

  • g_crush

    .
    Cliff: When conservatives say “individualism..”
    .
    …they mean ‘being able to act without conscience and not being held accountable for their consequences’.
    .
    I saw Glenn Beck talking to Bill O’Reilly last night..
    .
    Oh, dear God. Are you okay?
    .
    ..and one of them asked where all the rugged individuals have gone.
    .
    Silly talking heads. They never left the pages of Atlas Shrugged.

  • g_crush

    .
    grrr…’the consequences’…

  • dfh

    So the Republican’s plan is to sit around and wait for the Democrats to make mistakes then attack them? That sounds like a great plan. Palin 2012!

  • JJ

    Sam Tanenhaus from the other day:
    .
    ****The key word in Mr. Gerson’s analysis is “movement,” a term more applicable to moral or spiritual crusades than to the practical matters of governance, particularly governance in a two-party system, where success almost invariably requires compromise, consensus and a mind open to all manner of workable solutions.
    .
    These have not been, historically, the strength of “movement conservatives,” who prefer arguments built on first principles often expressed in supercharged rhetoric.*****
    .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/us/politics/06repubs.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
    .
    In other words, winning “semantic fights,” a strength. Solving peoples’ actual problems, not so much.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    I find it interesting that anyone could still support this Republican come back meme with a straight face, although MS isn’t jut anyone. When I think of the future I think that the GOP is even on line to lose the business cohort pretty soon. Yes the oil barons (the buggy whip producers) will remain steadfast supporters but the green economy, the future of energy on the planet, is very much dependent on government to level the playing field so they can get a foot hold in the next great wave of entrepreneurship. Don’t believe me MS — why the he11 do you think T. Boone Pickens (formerly of swift boat fame and oil baron) chose to remain neutral in the Presidential election. While he didn’t root for the Dems he like a lot of other Republicans who see the writing on the wall but weren’t quite ready to convert just stayed home.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Here is yet another example of whats going to happen in the GOP for the forseeable future. For some reason TONS of conservatives love Laura Ingraham who in my estimation is just a female version of Sean Hannity without many IQ points separating them. Check out how she goes off on the Governator for daring to try to express moderate Republican values and offering up ideas on how they can move forward. This is going to be a very fun 4 to 8 years!
    .
    http://thinkprogress.org/2008/11/11/ingraham-schwarzenegger/

  • Hammerlock

    g_crush: Funny that you mention that. The freepers are all about John Galt these days. Along with secession, insurrection, and their usual happy-joy routines. At this point, its membership is probably setting themselves up to be more heavily examined than some chans by the FBI.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    At its core, conservatism is about individualism.
    .
    No. This is a lie. It’s a deliberate lie when being told by people like George HW Bush and George W. Bush. It’s transparently a lie when told by Tony Perkins. It’s self-delusion when told by a libertarian.
    .
    But it is a lie. Conservatives are capitalists, and capitalism is collectivism. It’s a more effective collectivist scheme than communism, because it recognizes the value of capital (physical capital like roads and factories) in creating a prosperous society.
    .
    But you can’t have capitalism without a large, instrusive, coercively funded state.
    .
    It’s easy to think of states with much more individual liberty, and a much smaller, much less intrusive state apparatus. Conservatives, self-styled individualists, have no interest in such states, although they are the states with the longest human history.
    .
    Conservatives believe in a state role in disbursing collectively held resources to wealthy individuals for exploitation, with the costs of acquisition and cleanup borne by the state. Whether we are talking railroad rights of ways, construction of canals, or dumping transformers filled with deadly poison into a fishery (you STILL shouldn’t eat striped bass caught in the Hudson), the profits are privatized and the losses are socialized. They can’t socialize the losses without the large intrusive state to do it for them. And they can’t acquire the natural resources to exploit without the state acquiring the property and then distributing it.
    .
    All of this rhetoric of small states, of drowning government in bathtubs, of individualism, is a lie.

  • 53_3

    Cliff:
    Norweigans colonized Greenland, Iceland, Newfoundland, and possibly NE US sporadically between 300AD and about 1250AD.
    .
    The French didn’t. The Italians didn’t. The Serbs didn’t, and the Angles didn’t.
    .
    My point is that most of my ancestors’ istory doesn’t accrue to them. These others? They did other things, which don’t accrue to my ancestors.
    .
    There are points of contact, for sure, and interactions, but my point is that my history different from any other ancestry. In short, really, there is no “white”!
    .
    Even here, most of us came to the US in separate waves of immigration for different reasons and at different times. Again, there is no “white”.
    .
    I’ve been married to a Black woman for 24 years. You get a pretty good view of the Black community when you’ve been around that long. Add to that about six years before I got married, and the interactions are even deeper.
    .
    BTW, Black Americans, by virtue of the fact that they were brought over involuntarily to feed the economic maw of slavery, do have a common history, and further, any previous culture and histories that accrue to them individually (the various source tribes in Africa) was literally erased by fragmentation, supression, and isolation in small groups under a masters’ control.
    .
    These are issues to be considered…

  • Cliff

    Oh, dear God. Are you okay?
    .
    I was on the ellipticals so I was able to channel the rage out through my feet. The disgust, not so much.
    I appreciate your concern, though.

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    @sgw – Totally agree on Laura Ingraham. I read that she dated Larry Summers! This makes me laugh.

  • trifecta

    A question. Carl Cameron got juicy campaign gossip. Newsweek got some as well. What are you offering MS?

  • 53_3

    To emphasize my last point, consider the fact that most Black Americans can’t trace their lineages back to Africa.

  • maurice2u

    As a Democrat I am more than happy to see the Republican party continue their exclusionary practices, catering to an ever shrinking percentage of the population in a losing effort.
    .
    However, as an American I wish they would throw out such notions and become the party of Colin Powell, not the party of Sarah Palin. America needs competing ideas and approaches to find the best solutions for a given situation. That requires civil discourse though, and pushing to the right even further does not allow for that.
    .
    Oh well, one can dream.

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    I want to follow up on the Larry Summers dating Laura Ingraham item. This is why I don’t support Summers for Treasury. I think if you’ve been inside Laura Ingraham, then you shouldn’t be inside the White House. Make your choice, one or the other.

  • JJ

    Pourmecoffee wins the thread.

  • g_crush

    .
    What’s the difference between “white” and “Norwegian”?
    .
    Norwegians know what ‘lutefisk’ is? Norwegian genetic material is in in higher demand?

  • Cliff

    53_3: I getcha, you’re using a more precise definition than skin color.
    I’ve been married to a Black woman for 24 years.
    .
    That was the piece of the puzzle I was missing.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “The thing that Reagan got right, and he got it so right it will never be topped, was coupling conservatism with optimism.”

    Yeah, stop saying this country has problems that need to be fixed, we’re inherently invincible and our existence is as much a part of the fabric of the universe as gravity. A 30 year parade of optimistically patting ourselves on the back for having the wisdom to be born American, while these very foreseeable problems festered. Reagan got it wrong. Go read Carter’s ‘Malaise’ speech….we should have listened.

  • Cliff

    I think if you’ve been inside Laura Ingraham, then you shouldn’t be inside the White House.
    .
    Hurk!

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd
  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    preview. it’s, like, a necessity.

  • trifecta

    speaking of Laura Ingraham, didn’t she go all boiling the bunny on one ex-bf?

  • textee

    “David ‘Gergen’ Brooks Admits Defeat”?

    David “Gergen” Brooks admits defeat to what? Someone may want to inform Brooks and Michael Scherer that Brooks ain’t a “Republican”. Nobody in the Republican party cares what Brooks thinks. At the most, three or four members of the Republican party want to model the Republican party on a Brooks model of surrender to America’s enemies and feminized, earth-worshipping, nanny state socialism.

  • 53_3

    grape:
    .
    Oh, sh!t!
    .
    I’m gonna miss out on a killing! I got snipped!
    .
    Cwap! That’s probably the only thing going up in this n@sty economic situation!

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Laura Ingraham, Nancy Photenhauer….you got a thing for dominant, blond ice queens doncha?

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    @cincy – If by “thing” you mean “complicated horror” then yes.

  • 53_3

    Did anyone tell texte that he doesn’t need to spout talking points anymore?
    .
    A Black man won the election already.
    .
    Live with it, texte…

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Uhmm pourme
    .
    If Laura Ingraham would shut up for more than 10 minutes I dont know many guys who WOULDN’T be inside her if the opportunity presented itself. You would cut down all hope of every finding a credible Treasury Secretary that did’t still live with his parents watching reruns of star trek all day if you imposed that measure. Don’t get me wrong Summers SHOULD have to get a rabies booster before he takes the job, but you can’t blame him for being a man.

  • shepherdwong

    “At its core, conservatism is about individualism. Where the GOP fails is in refusing to see how the deck is stacked against individualism by forces of institution and convention.”

    The marketing pitch may have always been about the individual and individualism but the actual philosophies and policies have always been rabidly deregulatory which, as you suggest, stacks the deck against the individual and individualism. It’s a contradiction that exposes one of the great lies that underpins the overall fraud that is the conservative movement.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    To emphasize my last point, consider the fact that most Black Americans can’t trace their lineages back to Africa.
    .
    Neither can most white people. I know the name of one great-grandparent, and that’s only because I knew her when she was alive. I have no idea when any of my ancestors arrived here, aside from my maternal Greek grandfather.
    .
    If your ancestors arrived in the 19th century, then the odds are slim you know who they are or where they came from.
    .
    The Ngok Dinka people of the central Sudan who I spent a year with, long ago, otoh, could recite their paternal ancestry up to about the 15th generation, longer if the family was of chiefly blood. In fact, your full name was the recitation of your ancestry.
    .

  • 53_3

    grape:
    .
    Oh, sh!t!
    .
    I’m gonna miss out on a k!lling! I got snipped!
    .
    Cwap! That’s probably the only thing going up in this n@sty economic situation!

  • sgwhiteinfla

    textee tell the truth….
    .
    You are really an anti American terr0rist who worships Allah aren’t you?

  • Cliff

    a Brooks model of surrender to America’s enemies and feminized, earth-worshipping, nanny state socialism
    .
    You know, I kind of want to say texte is an artist and his medium is sin. Notice how he’s grafted mysogyny onto hatred of the poor, xenophobia, and the desire to destroy the planet..
    .
    Well done, sir.

  • 53_3

    grape:
    .
    Oh, sh!+!
    .
    I’m gonna miss out on a kidubblelling! I got snipped!
    .
    Cwap! That’s probably the only thing going up in this n@sty economic situation!

  • rose83

    The GOP will start to rebuild soon. While everyone has been busy analyzing Palin’s clothes, people have stopped paying attention to what she’s actually saying. Basically, she’s taking every opportunity she can to talk about Obama’s historic candidacy and his ability to unite people – the race baiting is gone. So if even Sarah Palin can see that the GOP needs to stop the hate if they want to win, no doubt the rest of the GOP will soon see the light.

    I don’t believe her for a minute, and I can’t see her convincing voters of her respect for diversity, but someone – maybe Jindal – will eventually manage it. If Obama governs well, the GOP can quietly acquiesce to health care reform and a quieter foreign policy, while stressing small government. After an Obama Presidency, there won’t be so many pressing problems that demand solutions. So maybe by 2016 they will be a viable party again.

    And I’m actually looking forward it. Wouldn’t it be nice to have an election – like the primaries – where you weren’t terrified by the thought of the other side winning?

  • 53_3

    grape:
    .
    Oh, cwap!
    .
    I’m gonna miss out on a kidubblelling! I got sn!pped!
    .
    Cwap! That’s probably the only thing going up in this economic situation!

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    “David ‘Gergen’ Brooks Admits Defeat”?
    David “Gergen” Brooks admits defeat to what? Someone may want to inform Brooks and Michael Scherer that Brooks ain’t a “Republican”. Nobody in the Republican party cares what Brooks thinks. At the most, three or four members of the Republican party want to model the Republican party on a Brooks model of surrender to America’s enemies and feminized, earth-worshipping, nanny state socialism

    .
    Hahahahahahaha!!
    .
    Look at that!! They’re still around!!

  • 53_3

    grape:
    I’ve tried five times to get this through the moderator!
    .
    Innocuous wording but the mod is relentless:
    .
    As for the, uh “shortage”, I’m gonna miss out on a kidubblelling! I got sn!pped!
    .
    Cwap! That’s probably the only thing going up in this economic situation!

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    “I don’t believe her for a minute, and I can’t see her convincing voters of her respect for diversity, but someone – maybe Jindal – will eventually manage it.”
    .
    Sure, if he can manage to exorcise demons from a young woman AND cure her of cancer then he can do anything.

    “Whenever I concentrated long enough to begin prayer, I felt some type of physical force distracting me. It was as if something was pushing down on my chest, making it very hard for me to breathe. . . Though I could find no cause for my chest pains, I was very scared of what was happening to me and Susan. I began to think that the demon would only attack me if I tried to pray or fight back; thus, I resigned myself to leaving it alone in an attempt to find peace for myself.”
    .
    Nope, not scary at all.

  • 53_3

    grape:
    I’ve tried six times to get this through the moderator!
    .
    Innocuous wording but the mod is relentless:
    .
    As for the, uh “shortage”, I’m gonna miss out on a kidubblelling! I got sn!pped!
    .
    That’s probably the only thing going up in this economic situation!

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    I think if you’ve been inside Laura Ingraham, then you shouldn’t be inside the White House.

    And as I read this, a dirty song by Liz Phair shows up on the shuffle.

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    At the most, three or four members of the Republican party …. At the present rate, that’s approaching a majority.

  • viciousmaniac

    The Republicans simply need to return to their more appealing core values and then increase their inclusiveness. It really makes no sense that the likes of Huckabee and frankly Bush are Republicans simply because of their hawkish views and Bible-thumping prattlings. It makes even less sense to continue culture battles from the 60′s when the young and ethnics have recently made clear that those days are DEAD (save for rare exceptions like gay rights, the opposition to which is on borrowed time). It makes even less less less sense when your party is seemingly 99% crusty old white guy.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!
  • sgwhiteinfla

    jay
    .
    I think what 53_3 meant was that even if you undertake the task of tracing back your lineage as a black man, if your family is descended from slaves then it usually ends up amounting to guess work. Most white people can trace at least the country from where their ancestors came in order to immigrate to America. Many black people get dead ended at which plantation their ancestors belonged to. My uncle undertook trying to trace back our lineage about 8 years ago and he got further than most but much of it still comes down to guess work because slaves didnt really show up in historical records by name. But in all this time he has only gotten to where our Ancestors were sold in the virgin islands after making the trip over from Africa. We will never be able to track back any farther than that and even to get that far took a lot of luck in addition to will and sk!ll. I am not trying to play the victim here but its a fact that the majority of black folks in this country will never be able to trace their lineage back any further than slavery.

  • JJ

    After an Obama Presidency, there won’t be so many pressing problems that demand solutions.

    Retooling the entire economy not to use fossil fuels will probably take more than two presidential terms. And it will be a fight the whole time. And that’s just one problem. There are others, and I think after eight years, there will still be an uphill climb. (Sorry to be a downer…)

  • 53_3

    grape:
    I’ve tried 7 times to get this through the moderator!
    .
    I wish I could make some money on that “shortage”! I got, er, uh, well, let’s just say that I can no longer “contribute”…

  • shepherdwong

    “At its core, conservatism is about individualism. Where the GOP fails is in refusing to see how the deck is stacked against individualism by forces of institution and convention.”

    Another tell is the right’s readiness to strip women, gay people and minorities of their freedoms. So, “conservatism is about rich, white male individualism” would be more accurate.

  • 53_3

    I’m being azzed by the moderator!

  • rose83

    cincinnatus, if having a crazy religious connection disqualified someone from the Presidency, we’d all be talking about President-elect Biden. I think it’s all really weird, but apparently I’m in a minority on that…

  • 53_3

    I’ve tried 8 times to respond to your joke, grape, but I guess the moderater doesn’t find it as funny as I do!

  • sgwhiteinfla

    jay
    .
    I think what 53_3 meant was that even if you undertake the task of tracing back your lineage as a black man, if your family is descended from sl@ves then it usually ends up amounting to guess work. Most white people can trace at least the country from which their ancestors came in order to immigrate to America. Many black people get de@d ended at which plantation their ancestors belonged to. My uncle undertook trying to trace back our lineage about 8 years ago and he got further than most but much of it still comes down to guess work because sl@ves didnt really show up in historical records by name. But in all this time he has only gotten to where we know our Ancestors were sold in the virgin islands after making the trip over from Africa. We will never be able to track back any farther than that and even to get that far took a lot of luck in addition to will and sk!ll. I am not trying to play the victim here but its a fact that the majority of black folks in this country will never be able to trace their lineage back any further than slavery.

  • textee

    Cliff Says:

    “You know, I kind of want to say texte is an artist and his medium is sin. Notice how he’s grafted mysogyny onto hatred of the poor, xenophobia, and the desire to destroy the planet…”
    .
    “Well done, sir.”

    “Cliff”:

    I’ll give you a $100 if you will admit that “Cliff” is a pseudonym and that your real name is Kief Olbermann. Did you see the Saturday Night Live skit that Ben Afleck did on you? He had you down precisely. The skit did, though, fail to accurately portray your guests. Those dupes and lunatics never, never, never disagree with your “thoughts”.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Wrong Rose. If Obama voiced belief in demons…we’d be talking about President-elect McCain. Would you draw the line at a belief in Faeries?

  • 53_3

    I’ve tried nine times to respond to your joke, g*r*a*p*e, but I guess the moderater doesn’t find it as funny as I do!

  • shepherdwong

    “At its core, conservatism is about individualism. Where the GOP fails is in refusing to see how the deck is stacked against individualism by forces of institution and convention.”

    Another tell is the right’s readiness to strip women, poor people, g@ys and minorities of their freedoms. So, “conservatism is about rich, white, straight, male individualism” would be more accurate.

  • rose83

    JJ, yeah I phrased that badly. I mean that Obama will have started the solutions process, and the Republicans can basically copy his ideas. Which is what Bush did in 2000 (by lying). Bush basically ran for Clinton’s third term, only promising to be folksier with bigger tax cuts.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    third try
    .
    jay
    .
    I think what 53_3 meant was that even if you undertake the task of tracing back your lineage as a black man, if your family is descended from sl@ves then it usually ends up amounting to guess work. Most white people can trace at least the country from which their ancestors came in order to immigrate to America. Many black people get de@d ended at which plantation their ancestors belonged to. My uncle undertook trying to trace back our lineage about 8 years ago and he got further than most but much of it still comes down to guess work because sl@ves didnt really show up in historical records by name. But in all this time he has only gotten to where we know our Ancestors were sold in the virgin islands after making the trip over from Africa. We will never be able to track back any f@rther than that and even to get that far took a lot of luck in addition to will and sk!ll. I am not trying to play the victim here but its a fact that the majority of black folks in this country will never be able to trace their lineage back any further than sl@very.

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    I remember reading that TPM piece on Jindal and objecting. Unless Jindal has any record of bringing that into governance, I choose not to judge him over it. Barack Hussein Obama, and all that. This stuff cuts both ways. Jindal seems like a sharp guy, but with pretty conventional conservative policy positions. That ought to be enough to defeat him. I thought it was a cheap shot for Josh to feature anecdotes of a personal spiritual nature with no evidence of any connection to his public life. ALL religions are preposterous if you start down that path.

  • rose83

    cincinnatus, from my perspective, it’s all gradations in craziness. Wright’s a strange man, although he can’t match Palin’s pastor. And neither of them can match Hagee.

    Anyway, of course I think the whole demonic possession thing is worse. I care, but most people don’t. Bush was reelected after we found out he talks to God (who is apparently a terrible foreign policy advisor).

  • themaverickformerlyknownasbasilbrush

    I sometimes suspect that Bush spent more time talking at God than he invested in listening to him. But then, as Palin would say: I am not one to theologize.

  • 53_3

    Jayack:
    .
    What you say is true, however, none of the “white” populations lost that ability due to a common bottleneck that had a such a homogonizing and culturally cleansing impact. “White” cultures were not erased, but more likely, simply lost over time.
    .
    The ability for a Black American whose ancestors didn’t immagrate after 1865 to trace their ancestry is far smaller than that of all other American citizens. Most lineages disappear into the imperfect maze of slavowners’ records in the years between 1830 and 1865, and successfully tracing back further is very, very rare.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    SG — How effective is the DNA search in at least pinpointing general region of where folks have come from? While its not like finding your long lost cousin its something.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    The really funny thing about the Jindall story is that his own party will be the ones to use it against him just like the Rethugs used Romney’s being a mormon against him. The Dems won’t have to lift a finger. I mean lets be serious here for a minute. People are promoting Michael Steele right now for RNC chair but he will never get that spot. And don’t for a second believe that the GOP really wants a minority like Jindall to represent their party. Oh they will let him into the primaries and point to him as proof that their party has advanced but he will be quickly and forcefully rebuked by the wing nuts. Its not really something I look forward to seeing either.

  • cincinnatus est exterminata!

    Sorry the demon thing won’t fly w/ the majority of Americans outside the Bible Belt. Jindal’s gone as far as he’s gonna go, but by all means GOP, nominate him.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Dee,
    .
    We havent gone the DNA route yet but that is the only thing we have left as an option. We were hoping to do the whole “Roots” thing but we have run into the definite de@d end going that route.

  • 53_3

    Thanks sg!
    I’ve been trying to reply to the jokes about my Norweigan heritage, which were funnier than the moderator thinks.
    .
    I’ve tried to respond to Jayack’s comments, which you’ve accurately been able to reconvey, and other stuff, but this moderator is getting to be more and more like a bolo around the legs of an ostrich!
    .
    I am beginning to dislike the moderator very much. I everything I’ve been trying to say was innocuous!

  • 53_3

    I have fifteen comments in purgatory!

  • 53_3

    And believe me, none were derogatory in the least!
    .
    I GIVE UP!
    .
    For now, anyway…

  • trifecta

    textee
    .
    Bwahahahahahahahah.
    .
    Go discuss your thoughts at Free Republic, where they will make “sense” to people.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    53_ 3 I’ve been there before and trying to figure it out is pointless. Just made every a and @, every e a 3, every l or i a one and every o a zero and u’s make them v’s and that ususally gets me through.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    I am not trying to play the victim here but its a fact that the majority of black folks in this country will never be able to trace their lineage back any further than sl@very.
    .
    Another way to put what I was trying to say is that most African-Americans have a much longer American heritage than most European-Americans. IOW, slavery as a mechanism for getting here goes back much farther than most contemporary American ancestral lines. (The Jefferson/Hemmings family conflict is an ironic illustration of this.)
    .
    My SO has a straightline European ethnic heritage. One parent first generation, one parent second from the same country. But if you were part of the 19th century immigration waves, then your records are lost. (Well, so are hers; destroyed in the war. But there is still family there on the maternal side.)
    .
    But WASPs like me (with a quarter greek) have no idea. I wouldn’t know where to start figuring this out. When I visited Nova Scotia, did the brain-dead tourist thing and bought my grandmother a scarf of her Scottish maiden name’s supposed tartan. That’s already all effed up. I was in Nova Scotia, not Scotland. And I wasn’t sure of the spelling, in the event. (I don’t want to even think about my brother’s kids. His wife is Puerto Rican.)
    .
    So what I’m saying is that European-Americans generally have no clue either unless they arrived recently. Different reasons. But, still, the typical American black has a richer American ancestry than the typical American white. And, in the event that they are equally rich, there is likely to be some African sh!t going on in both–
    as Obama said of Michelle’s heritage carrying both slave and slaveholder.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    In the interests of full disclosure and just fyi, as someone who grew up in the south in Tennesee going to black churches literally my whole life I want to let those of you know who don’t already know that when you look at what Jeremiah Wright said IN CONTEXT its no different from what I have heard in different black churches for a long period of time. And the truth is not once did I consider leaving any of those churches. The reason being is that when you are in church and you are surrounded by other black people and your pastor is talking about the factually correct history of the treatment of black people in this country you feel a shared empathy for what the preacher is saying and a shared outrage that some things still have not changed. Now I am not saying that I heard “God Dmn America” in every church that I went to nor trying to say that its said in the majority of black churches in those explicit terms. But what I am saying every preacher that I grew up listening to had a LOT of things to say about the failures of this country. And if videos of a lot of those sermons got out there would be many who condemned those preachers as well. However I never took what they said as a sign that the preacher h@ted this country nor a signal that I should h@te this country but more so a signal that we should stand up to bigotry when we are confronted with it and we should all be trying to improve this country to the point where there are no more injustices based primarily on a person’s skin color.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    sgw–

    thanks for the thoughtful reply. I replied in turn, as thoughtfully as I could, but, of course it’s in limbo. I don’t want to try to reparse it, so we can wait.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Dee,
    .
    I agree. After the mods catch me twice I just start inserting stuff all over the place even when I don’t see how there could be a problem. I am almost certain right now that I have two posts stuck in mods for the word “f@rther” as in “f@rt her”

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    sgw–
    .
    I think you apologize too much here. If you’ve read obama’s bio, and if you actually listened to even the most supposedly inflammatory sermons from Wright, you cannot conclude that what he was saying was unpatriotic or anything less than thoughtful. It was rhetorically charged,in a charged context, at an emotional time. But when Andrew Sullivan posted the link to it, and I watched it, I thought it was discourse that we need to hear more of.
    .

    And I thought Wright effed up big time when he had the national stage in the Charlie Rose? interview.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    jay
    .
    I agree and I wasn’t trying to be overly apologetic, but I also have friends who even when I sent them the unedited video of what Jeremiah Wright said in context still thought that he was showing hate towards america. And because rose83 mentioned Rev Wright again and because of course Obama couldn’t have possibly put his neck on the line and tried to explain why what Rev Wright said was not anti-American, I just wanted to take the opportunity to explain to any of those people who might still be truly offended by his words why most black people or people who were familiar with the black church were not offended by his words. But thanks for the additional support!

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    a LOT of things to say about the failures of this country

    One of the more potent weapons in the Right wing playbook is the criticism taboo that lurks behind ‘patriotism’. It is of course embodied in the phrase “blame America first” which is used routinely to marginalize anyone who dares to look at America with open eyes. What makes the tactic particularly effective is that it taps the energy of denial. If Americans have engaged in activities which, when viewed from outside would be regarded as atrocities, then guilt would be a natural reaction. But because guilt is such an unpleasant emotion and in the context of warfare can be downright crippling, there is a powerful taboo that prevents careful moral evaluation of our own actions.

    It’s easy to see how such a protective sheild can nevertheless lead to more evil actions. Even today the WSJ is going out of its way to encourage our new President to leave the actions of the outgoing one unexamined and uncorrected:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122636726473415991.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    Palin was channeling Wright in her rally speeches, just with a mirror image theme and crowd.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    SG — There you go again saying something that I must second.
    .
    It seems like during the heat of the campaign very little effort was made to try to put Wright’s comments into the context of the totality of the black experience. Mostly, because most blacks figured that it wouldn’t be readily understood and also why despite media assertions to the contrary Obama did not pay a price among black voters when he had to sever ties to Wright. The severance by the way was not about the comments, it was about the deliberate attempt of the old bull to maintain power at the expense of the entire community.

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    So KT must be out of the downsizing meeting.
    .
    Sheriffs–you either need to shut down the bot or set up a moderation schedule.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    SG — There you go again saying something that I must second.
    .
    It seems like during the heat of the campaign very little effort was made to try to put Wright’s comments into the context of the totality of the black experience. Mostly, because most blacks figured that it wouldn’t be readily understood and also, despite the media’s @ssertions to the contrary, Obama would not have to pay a price among black voters for severing ties to Wright. The severance by the way was not about the comments, it was about the deliberate attempt of the old bull to soothe his wounded pride at the expense of the entire community.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    LOL Dee,
    .
    Sorry for saying something we agree on lol. You know what they say about great minds!
    .
    It was both sad and comical to see pundits weigh in on Rev Wright during the campaign. Most of them had not the first clue and unfortunately there just werent any black pundits who wanted to take up that cause.
    .
    It my turn to second you Dee as to the point of why Obama finally had to sever ties with Wright. It goes back to the Lieberman thing for me. There is a big difference between someone embarrasing you and or having a different opinion than you do, and someone deliberately trying to sabotage you. You can forgive both but you can’t forget the later. If Rev Wright had just held his tongue there never would have been the need to throw him under the bus. But by continuing to say questionable stuff and then to turn on Obama specifically, he guaranteed that Obama would have to dismiss him.

  • 53_3

    I’ve actually gone to a fair number of functions in a variety of Black churches, and I also agree that the demonizing of Jeremiah Wright is wrong.
    .
    None of the church functions I’ve ever been to have abhorred America for what it is, but Jeremiah Wright’s commentary, is a more or less “fire and brimstone” view of what God would have done to America for it’s sins.
    .
    For from racist, I see speech like Jeramiah Wrights more in line with the only avenue acceptable venue of voicing the anger and frustration at racial problems here in the US.
    .
    He isn’t comparable to the likes of Hagee or Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell for several reasons:
    1. Jeremiah Wright never vocalized any racist commentary. His anger and frustration was directed at the white establishment, but that itself is not racist. On the contrary, it has a factual basis in history.
    2. His commentary about what other white Americans would dismiss as “conspiracy theories” also are in fact grounded in history.
    3. His commentary was directed to a Black American audience (also some whites, too), where the context of the history and the culture remove some of the “sinister” aspects of his speech.
    .
    I will be the first to acknowledge that it is very difficult for White Americans to understand this, but part of the problem is due to the injection into the mainstream white American psyche of various sundry “urban myths” that have been absorbed without question.

  • shepherdwong

    “…why most black people or people who were familiar with the black church were not offended by his words.”

    I was mostly jealous that something interesting was going on in other people’s churches. OTOH, 18 seconds out of twenty years in the pulpit ain’t all that much bomb-throwing.

  • 53_3

    Jayack, sg, Dee, et al,
    .
    One of my biggest peeves, I guess, is that the truth is, that discussions like this should have occurred 30 years ago or more, but could not.
    .
    The reason:
    .
    The GOPs efforts to demonize the Black community in particular, their issues (“pandering”), and their views (“whining”, being “divisive”, or “bringing up the past”) were strongly supressed not by any fiat or law, but instead by the relentless broadcast of disinformation broadcast by the past and present surrogates of the GOP.
    .
    Hey! MS!
    .
    Yes, that was a very sharp jab of my elbow in your side!

  • sgwhiteinfla

    I saw this as it happened on MSNBC. I am not usually a big fan of Chris Kofinis but he PWNED Ron Christie today or I should say he PWNED Sarah Palin today in a way that I think you have never seen a surrogate do before the election for fear of the blowback. You can actually hear Kofinis laughing at Christie when he is trying to explain Palin’s redeeming qualities. The name Sanjaya came up to give you a preview.
    .

  • maurice2u

    Before there was Karl Rove, there was Lee Atwater.
    .
    PBS Frontline will be airing the documentary on the beginning of the modern day fear/division based political tactics of the Republican party.
    .
    Enjoy!
    .
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/
    .
    http://www.boogiemanfilm.com/

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    53_3

    I was walking up the stairs with dry cleaning thinking exactly that.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    It’s funny when the Wright stuff first broke there were a couple of black members of the media who asked the question and so why is this racist? If remember correctly it was Eugene Robinson on Olbermann’s show and Roland Martin on CNN. But it didn’t last long because the narrative had already been chosen and it was decided that Wright was an anti-American racist. My hope is that in the light of the white gay activists immediate reliance on racist statements to vent frustration over the passing of prop 8 we will recognize that despite Obama’s win there is still some distance to travel. But because of Obama’s win we can all agree that people of good faith can disagree about racial perceptions and agree to sit down and hash them out because ultimately we know we are in this together.

  • 53_3

    Hecks and Darnations!
    .
    Now just what euphemisms are out there in the Black community to describe Ron Christie?
    .
    I mean, I know conseratism exists, but he’s more in the Alan Keyes / Ward Connorly mold.
    .
    The only descriptor I can apply here is, uh…
    .
    Well, lets just say that he would shake the hands of the participants in his lynching, thanking them for their opinions!

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    It’s funny when the Wright stuff first broke there were a couple of black members of the media who asked the question and so why is this racist? If remember correctly it was Eugene Robinson on Olbermann’s show and Roland Martin on CNN. But it didn’t last long because the narrative had already been chosen and it was decided that Wright was an anti-American racist. My hope is that in the light of the white gay activists immediate reliance on racist statements to vent frustration over the p@ssing of prop 8 we will recognize that despite Obama’s win there is still some distance to travel. But because of Obama’s win we can all agree that people of good faith can disagree about racial perceptions and agree to sit down and hash them out because ultimately we know we are in this together.

  • 53_3

    Umm, and I’ll also be the first to admit that I’ve extrapolated his persona somewhat beyond where it really extends. After all, he does have an instinct for survival!
    .
    Doesn’t he?

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    It’s funny when the Wright stuff first broke there were a couple of bl@ck members of the media who @sked the question “and so why is this r@cist?” If I remember correctly it w@s Eugene Robinson on Olbermann’s show and Roland Martin on CNN. But it didn’t l@st long because the narrative had already been chosen and it was decided that Wright w@s an @nti-Americ@n r@cist. My hope is that in the light of the white g@y activists immediate reliance on r@cist statements to vent frustration over the p@ssing of prop 8 we will recognize that despite Obama’s win there is still some distance to travel. But because of Obama’s win we can all agree that people of good faith can disagree about r@cial perceptions and agree to sit down and h@sh them out because ultimately we know we are in this together.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    53_3
    .
    LMAOOOOOOOOO
    .
    I have to say though that at least once or twice I have seen Christie take off his GOP hat and speak out against some of the stuff said about Obama. But yeah he would as we call it be “shucking and jiving” all the way to the noose. I don’t mind black folks who are conservatives/republicans. But I DO mind when they come off like puppets just parroting lines.

  • 53_3

    I think that Obama was faced with a Hobson’s choice with Wright. I’m sure Obama knows what Wright was getting at, the context, and all of that.
    .
    This is the life of a politician, I guess. Wright, as innocuous as I think he is, is too scary for uninformed whites to make the leap to try to understand.
    .
    He either had to toss him under the bus, or dive there himself. The prop8 thing is also a common failure where conservatism in the Black community was stretched too far to accomodate hatred and fear.
    .
    I goes to show that hate and fear aren’t companions of white conservatives only, but for Black conservatives, the barrel of the GOP gun points squarely at them.
    .
    Unless, of course, your name is Ron Christie…

  • sgwhiteinfla

    This story is for everyone who might have criticized Murtha for saying his constituents are racist. Stay cl@ssy Southwestern PA
    .
    http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Pennsylvania_teachers_aide_said_Obama_would_1111.html

  • 53_3

    sg:
    I aways use the word “itinerant” to describe them.
    .
    He is kind of a “blazing saddles” kinda guy, huh?
    .
    The best litmus test I can think of though is when a Black American says:
    .
    “All I want is my 40 acres and a mule!”
    .
    I think the likes of MS would think they are saying they want a handout, but nothing gives me more pleasure than to advise them that what he or she just said was:
    .
    “Don’t break your promises!”

  • 53_3

    here’s one to put paid on the KKK “mainstreaming”…
    .
    http://www.wdsu.com/news/17956884/detail.html

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    I’m listening right now to Jindal and the GOP doesn’t get it. He’s sounds reasonable but the fundamental flaw in his argument is that the voters no longer trust the GOP to govern they have had 8 years of incompetence — its not about principles, ideology, or even divisiveness — its ability stupid. He thinks that the problem is being able to present solutions to the problems. No — the problem is that no one believes that can execute a solution — these are the pols that couldn’t shoot straight.

  • 53_3

    Just like everyone else in the GOP.
    .
    It’s toss Bush overboard and stay the course.
    .
    How remedial can one get?

  • jennofark

    Let me quibble with a few things here:

    an issue set that seems outmoded

    Well, that’s pretty much the definition of the modern conservatives – focusing on the golden days of yesteryear (that never existed) and trying to drag all of us back to them. Pretty hard to be the hep cat when you’re too busy trying to get everyone to focus on the good ol’ days, or the bad ol’ days, as they have for the past 40 years with their unceasing 1960′s culture war. More than that, though, let’s just concede that there really isn’t anything there that qualifies as an “issue set”, unless you want to try to claim that driving wedges between various groups of Americans qualifies as an “issue”. As far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t. It’s a tactic for winning elections; it’s not a strategy or roadmap for governing.

    Think back to 2003 or 2005, when Democrats were in dissarray. They were healed less by any new policy paper than by repeated Republican catastrophes.

    Wishful thinking is not a plan, and it took people 14 years to figure out that there really weren’t any principles guiding the Republican Party other than the lust for complete power. Waiting and hoping for the Democrats to screw up on a grand scale is a reasonable plan, if the Republicans want to wait around for the next 15 years or longer – longer would be my guess, because I’m not sure anyone could make as big a mess out of things as the Republicans managed to do in that amount of time, particularly not people whose core belief system is not centered on the idea that destroying government is for the greatest good. In other words, good luck with that.

    there is a considerable hunger for new ideas and policies that will address voter’s current concerns, without upsetting the old conservative coalition.

    Yes, it’s easy to talk about the need for new ideas and policies that will address voter’s concerns without upsetting the old conservative coalition, but what are those ideas and policies? How, exactly, can the GOP expect to keep their Talibangelical wing satisfied with the old red meat issues of gays n’ abortion, when the populace as a whole is moving further and further away from them each passing year? Really, don’t you think it’s remarkable how long they managed to keep them in the fold while failing to ever deliver on anything other than platitudes to “faith”? You’d think that if overturning Roe v Wade was something they ever actually intended to do it would have been done when they had a stranglehold on all branches of government. And yet…they didn’t do it. And there’s a reason for that, you know – it’s because it’s something they never intended to do, because if they had ever actually delivered on that, evangelicals would no longer have had a reason to turn out to vote. So they strung that carrot along for 35 years but never actually DID anything. Although these may be those “some of the people you can fool all of the time”, their numbers relative to the larger voting population decline with each passing year – so what will be used as the next carrot, when this one becomes too rotten to trot out in view of the population at large? Keeping the corporate/rich guy wing satisfied is just as problematic, since we’ve reached about the maximum level of wealth concentration that can be achieved without total financial collapse. That’s a dead end too; they can preach it, but to implement it would be to kill the party once and for all thanks to the consequences it would have for the rest of us.

    So, yeah, it’s easy to talk about finding a “middle way”…but talking isn’t finding, and the finding will not only not be easy, but for all the reasons above, is probably impossible.

    Good luck with that – you’ll need it. Thinking it over again, you’re probably right – the best bet for Republicans at this point may be to just sit tight for the next 15 + years, and hope that the Democrats really screw things up in a big way. That’s the clearest path back into power that remains for them now.

  • newfloridian

    When Gov Jindal of LA was on the tube during the hurricane I was so impressed. Tonite however he was on MSNBC 1600 Pennsylvania Ave show with David Gregory all he coudl do was give the old stock answers about Republicans becoming relevent again. When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governors meeting in Miami, he took a pass and said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out. He really milk toasted the interview and showed he is willing to cower to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very weak!!!! Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s toxic to everyone outside the hard core right wing and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too stupid to understand this fact.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    All I can say is I hope the GOP continues to adhere to this ridiculous form of denial and then as long as Renegade performs in his usual competent manner and manages expectations effectively he is going to be okay and Democrats will be able to permanently realign the country.

  • newfloridian

    When Gov Jindal of LA was on the tube during the hurricane I was so impressed. Tonite however he was on MSNBC 1600 Pennsylvania Ave show with David Gregory all he coudl do was give the old stock answers about Republicans becoming relevent again. When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governors meeting in Miami, he took a pass and said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out. He really milk toasted the interview and showed he is willing to cower to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very weak!!!! Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s offends everyone outside the hard core right wing and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too stupid to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    God I hate the moderation. I just tried to write a follow up on Jindal nothing problematic no bad words and moderation stikes.

  • newfloridian

    When Gov Jindal of LA was on the tube during the hurricane I was so impressed. Tonite however he was on MSNBC 1600 Pennsylvania Ave show with David Gregory all he could do was give the old stock answers about Republicans becoming relevent again. When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governors meeting in Miami, he took a pass and said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out. He really milk toasted the interview and showed he is willing to cower to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very weak!!!! Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s offends everyone outside the hard core and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too stupid to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    When Gov Jindal of LA was on the tube during the hurricane I was so impressed. Tonite however he was on MSNBC with David Gregory all he could do was give the old stock answers about Republicans becoming relevent again. When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governor’s meeting in Miami, he took a pass and said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out. He really milk toasted the interview and showed he is willing to cower to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very weak!!!! Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s offends everyone outside the hard core and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too stupid to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    When Gov Jindal of LA was on the tube during the hurricane I was so impressed. Tonite however he was on MSNBC with David Gregory all he could do was give the old stock answers about Republicans becoming relevent again. When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governor’s meeting in Miami, he took a pass and said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out. He really milk toasted the interview and showed he is willing to cower to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very weak!!!! Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s offends everyone outside the hard core and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    I have tried 4 more attempts changing words etc. No effect. Help ME!!!!

  • newfloridian

    When Gov Jindal of LA was on the tube during the hurricane I was so impressed. Tonite however he was on MSNBC with David Gregory all he could do was give the old stock answers about Republicans becoming relevent again. When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governor’s meeting in Miami, he took a pass and said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out. He really milk toasted the interview and showed he is willing to defer to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very weak!!!! Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s offends everyone outside the hard core and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    When Gov Jindal of LA was on the tube during the hurricane I was so impressed. Tonite however he was on MSNBC with David Gregory all he could do was give the old stock answers about Republicans becoming relevent again. When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governor’s meeting in Miami, he took a pass and said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out. He really milk toasted the interview and showed he is willing to defer to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very sad!!!! Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s offends everyone outside the hard core and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    It’s the A’s gets me every time. I just change them all to @ and call it a day.

  • newfloridian

    When Gov Jindal was on the tube during the hurricane I was so impressed. Tonite however he was on MSNBC with David Gregory all he could do was give the old stock answers about Republicans becoming relevent again. When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governor’s meeting in Miami, he took a pass and said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out. He really milk toasted the interview and showed he is willing to defer to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very sad!!!! Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s offends everyone outside the hard core and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    When Gov Jindal was on the tube during the hurricane I was so impressed. Tonite however he was on MSNBC with David Gregory all he could do was give the old stock answers about Republicans becoming relevent again. When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governor’s meeting in Miami, he took a pass and said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out. He really passed on the interview and showed he is willing to defer to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very sad!!!! Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s offends everyone outside the hard core and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    4 more attempts still no success

  • newfloridian

    When you see how mil toast the comment is you all are going to laugh. This is so pathetic.

  • newfloridian

    trying it in sections now

    When Gov Jindal was on the tube during the hurricane I was so impressed. Tonite however he was on MSNBC with David Gregory all he could do was give the old stock answers about Republicans becoming relevent again.

  • newfloridian

    When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governor’s meeting in Miami, he took a pass and said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out. He really passed on the interview and showed he is willing to defer to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very sad!!!!

  • Paul-no not that one

    I haven’t read all 191 comments but I trust in the course of this Rev Wright is so outrageous talk it was pointed out that he was just going with another radical.
    U.S. Amb@ssador Edward Peck’s “chicken’s coming home to roost”
    .
    All this was just trying to scare people.
    .
    The best part of all of this stuff was, despite the media’s best efforts, almost no one was moved by it.

  • newfloridian

    When David noted Gov Palin was going to be giving two major press conferences or speeches at the upcoming Governor’s meeting in Miami, just said the Governors need a variety of voices to speak out.

  • newfloridian

    He really passed on the interview and showed he is willing to defer to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very sad!!!!

  • newfloridian

    He just showed he is willing to defer to appease anyone he perceives as having power. Very sad!!!!

  • newfloridian

    Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s offends everyone outside the hard core and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she offends everyone outside the hard core Republicans and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    Again let’s all get behind Gov. Palin …she’s offends everyone outside the party and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    Again let’s all get behind the Alaskan Governor …she’s offends everyone outside the party and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    newfloridian
    .
    Right now Jindal has no choice but to back WHATEVER Palin does or says or the WingNuts will run him out of town on a rail. He was giving the pat GOP response since last week about getting back to the fundamentals of Conservatism. However I find it more than a little curious that Jindal declined to be vetted for the VP slot. Not that there is anything wrong with that but for some reason it made me think he may be hding something. Maybe there was more than just that one exorcism…The plot thickens lol

  • newfloridian

    Again we need to encourage Gov. Palin efforts…she offends everyone outside the Republican party and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    Again we need to encourage Gov. Palin efforts…she assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just too uneducated to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    Again we need to encourage Gov. Palin efforts…she offends everyone outside the Republican party and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just not smart enough to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    Again we need to encourage Gov. Palin efforts…she ,,,,, everyone outside the Republican party and assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just not smart enough to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    Again we need to encourage Gov. Palin efforts… she assures a permanent Democratic majority. The Republicans are just not smart enough to understand this fact.

  • newfloridian

    I give up can’t get the final sentance out of moderation this is so stupid

  • newfloridian

    sgwhiteinfla
    I cna’t give you any response as moderation is killing verything I write

  • newfloridian

    I am so angry I can’t even write correctly. Goodbye Swampland I am out of here.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    newfloridian
    .
    you gotta go crazy substituting characters for letters in all of the words. Other wise you might get caught because of f@rther or @nalysis or encomp@ss or sk!ll or g@y

  • Paul-no not that one

    “I am so angry I can’t even write correctly. Goodbye Swampland I am out of here.’
    .
    And the mods take another one.
    .
    Someone should go back and read what the Powers That Be wrote when Swampland came back. Something about how the commenters are so important.

  • 53_3

    newfloridian:
    .
    I feel for you. I really do! I almost gave up too!
    .
    And, of course, one of the wingnut capitals of the world is Louisiana. You have to play Limbaughs’ flute down there if you are a [current model] GOPer!

  • Paul-no not that one

    G@Y? sg that must be what put me into moderation hours ago. I had no idea that was a bad word.
    /
    Let me be the first to say-HATE CRIME

  • Andy from MA

    newfloridan — why not post everyting but the last sentence and then we can fill in the blanks.
    .
    everyone — I thought the give an take between 2 pm and now was very interesting. I learn a lot from you all.

  • Dee in Columbia MD

    PNNTO — True, despite the media’s attempt to derail Renegade, the Wright attack didn’t work. However, its failure is not because no one bought it but rather the deft handling of the situation was the reason that it was ineffective overall. Once white folks decided that nuance was okay trying to paint Renegade as a 2 dimensional character just got harder. But note that whites have always had the ability to make exceptions to the stereotype, I am hoping that as time moves on the open mindedness of the younger generation at some point the stereotype will become the exception rather than the rule.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    PNNTO
    .
    I have taken to just testing words now when I can’t figure out what is holding me up. f@rt in f@rther seemed to get me earlier. and @nal in @nalysis got me for like 3 hours the other day. We should come up with a new board game based on avoiding the mods. It would be the new soduku lol

  • Paul-no not that one

    ” f@rther or @nalysis or encomp@ss or sk!ll or g@y”
    Okay so the first one is, I assume, the first 4 letters. same for the second word. the last 3 letters in word 3, and the last 4 letters in word 4.
    What is the deal with word 5?

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Interesting statistic based on possibly flawed exit polls. 52 percent of evangelical voters who voted for McCain believe that Obama is or was a Muslim.
    .
    http://www.beliefnet.com/News/Politics/2008/11/Beliefnet-Election-2008-Exit-Poll-Results.aspx?p=1

  • Paul-no not that one

    Ha This went into moderation because I missed “@ssume”
    Repost-
    ” f@rther or @nalysis or encomp@ss or sk!ll or g@y”
    Okay so the first one is, I a$$ume, the first 4 letters. same for the second word. the last 3 letters in word 3, and the last 4 letters in word 4.
    What is the deal with word 5?

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    I don’t think I can take Chris Matthews stealth campaigning to the camera for the next however many months until he declares his candidacy. If he were a man, he’d just bring on Arlen Specter to co-host and battle with honor.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    PNNTO
    .
    I can only guess that the mods are against “happy” people lol

  • Paul-no not that one

    Dee excellent points. I do want to add that Senator Clinton bringing it up so early in the process really helped give time to people who needed it.
    McCain rolls Wright out in mid-October with the attendant media excitement and maybe it is more damaging.

  • Paul-no not that one

    sg must be that! Seriously that is pretty, uh, queer.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Huh I made a joke and found another banned word.
    repost-
    .
    “sg must be that! Seriously that is pretty, uh, qu33r.”

  • sgwhiteinfla

    pourme
    .
    I found this youtube clip the other day which reminded me why I watch Tweety. Don’t get me wrong Matthews can definitely grate on my nerves but just the thought that I might miss a replay of this or another Bachmann moment keeps me coming back. Check it out
    .

  • Art Pepper

    Brooks is an @ss. He just recently noticed that the GOP hates educated people, and now his feelings are all hurt. Wahhh wahhh.
    -
    MS: there is a considerable hunger [in the GOP] for new ideas and policies that will address voter’s current concerns – I’ll believe that when I see it. Unless by “voter’s concerns” you mean “fear of Arabs.”

  • 53_3

    I think that the word ‘was’ in that poll question was a red herring to tease out the unintegillant responders without really branding them as unintegillent, making it easier from some in that group to say yes. Tricky, tricky use of poll data…
    .
    God, what this moderator forces one to do! I can’t stand it.
    .
    Also, I think most white Americans really do want to do the right thing. It’s just that there isn’t agreement, much of it due to GOP efforts, on just what the right thing is.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    I for one am shocked, SHOCKED I tell ya that Newt won’t seek the RNC chair. All those ideas and no where to shove them. lol
    .
    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_11/015626.php

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Newt won’t seek the RNC chair”
    .
    To paraphrase-Newt don’t want to run nothing but his mouth.

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    @sgw – I saw that live, and it was the same week my son was studying it for AP History. We had a little father-son tag-team snarkfest. Fun. I actually like Matthews, but my point is that he has made a turn here very recently where his political aspirations are there to see. Tonight: “I’m a Keynesian.” Hey, I don’t care what you are. Interview your guests.

  • rose83

    I guess I should not have mentioned Wright without explaining in more detail what I meant. Sorry (to sg in particular).
    -
    I actually agree with 95% of the “controversial” comments he made – I get the God d–n America thing, etc. But the 5% of his comments that went way over the line – the AIDS stuff, Al-Qaeda comparison, the (cruel, trashy) Lewinsky comment, the sexism in general – do show he’s a pretty strange guy. Again, he doesn’t match Palin’s pastor or Hagee, but from my perspective there’s a lot of craziness in his comments. And my point is that in the context of an electorate who voted for a guy who believed that God wanted him to invade Iraq, and now has elected a guy who was associated with Wright for 20 years, I don’t see Jindal’s exorcism thing as being a disqualification.

    I hope that clears things up.

  • rose83

    Let my try rephrasing this to avoid moderation…
    -
    I guess I should not have mentioned Wright without explaining in more detail what I meant. Sorry (to sg in particular).
    -
    I actually agree with 95% of the “controversial” comments he made – I get the God d–n America thing, etc. But the 5% of his comments that went way over the line – the AIDS stuff, Al-Qaeda comparison, the (cruel, trashy) Lewinsky comment, the s@xism in general – do show he’s a pretty strange guy. Again, he doesn’t match Palin’s pastor or Hagee, but from my perspective there’s a lot of craziness in his comments. And my point is that in the context of an electorate who voted for a guy who believed that God wanted him to invade Iraq, and now has elected a guy who was associated with Wright for 20 years, I don’t see Jindal’s exorcism episode as being a disqualification.

    I hope that clears things up.

  • rose83

    Please free me from moderation! I need to explain my comments about Wright that were misinterpreted.
    Very frustrating…

  • Andy from MA

    PNNTO Newt is the most effective when he throws Molotov cocktails. Again, more GOP retreads. I’m hoping Michelle Bachmann becomes a prima dona leader for the GOP…oh please, please!

  • Art Pepper

    Holy mother of god, I agree with texte(e) on something. The 25%ers couldn’t care less what Brooks thinks, and that’s why he’s been so whiny lately.

  • Cliff

    What is the deal with word 5?
    .
    Paul NNTO, only chaste admiration of women from afar is allowed on this blog.

  • Andy from MA

    Art Pepper you said whiny. I have to make a public apology to Phil Gramm, who referred to America as a nation of whiners. Well, I think he is referring only to GOP (Real) America. Because since the election the entire GOP noise machine has been on one big whine fest.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Cliff, I don’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill-too late!-but that really is odd.
    Since KT is the only one to respond to comments, as opposed to read and pout ( Hi MS!),
    maybe we can ask her.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    pourme
    .
    I feel you. He has changed his tune of late. But I would just hate to miss him doing someone else like he did that guy. Kevin James in that clip embodied what is one of the central problems of Republicans. They simply do not possess the ability to admit when they don’t know something or when they are wrong. It was the same problem that Sarah Palin exhibited on the Bush Doctrine. Rather than just say “Charlie can you explain it for me because I want to make sure we are on the same page” she kept trying to bs her way through the answer and that made her look like the village idjut. That is the real reason that instead of looking for new ideas, Republicans are going back to their “fundamentals” thinking that will make a difference. At some point they have to take a long look in the mirror and admit that it wasnt just Bush who frikked everything up. It was ALL OF THEM!
    .
    I can’t get enough of that clip though lol

  • Andy from MA

    PNNTO — JNS interacts and JK actually responded to Jayackroyd today.

  • sgwhiteinfla

    PNNTO
    .
    I think the “bad” words on the mod list have to do with cuss words and words that might be demeaning to others or could be threatening or could be profane. I want to believe that g@y is on that list to prevent someone from using it as an insult to another person. I might be naive but at least I think thats what makes most sense

  • sgwhiteinfla

    See Tweety is PWNING Christie lol

  • http://pourmecoffee.blogspot.com pourmecoffee

    @sgw – It was funny that he was simultaneously OUTRAGED about it and KNEW NOTHING about it. At the same time. FURIOUS and CLUELESS. Absolutely livid – and unsure what it was all about. At the same time. Heh.

  • Andy from MA

    sg: You make it sound like people need to take personal responsibility for their actions and shortcomings. Why is that so difficult for the republicans? Aren’t they the party that preached personal responsibility?

  • sgwhiteinfla

    Andy
    .
    EXACTLY!

  • Cliff

    but that really is odd
    .
    In all seriousness, it’s probably due to the legions of 13 year old homophobes and Rustydogs (redundant? you tell me!) on the internet who use that as an insult.

  • Paul-no not that one

    I hear you sg, ironically banning the word does the opposite of their intent if your guess is correct.
    What is this, 1975?

  • Cliff

    but that really is odd
    .
    In all seriousness, it’s probably due to the legions of 13 year old h0m0ph0bes and Rustydogs (redundant? you tell me!) on the internet who use that as an insult.
    .
    So, apparently we must pretend both that g@y people do not exist, and that the people who h@te them do not exist (those are zeroes in ‘h0m0ph0be.’)

  • Paul-no not that one

    I think you are likely correct Cliff. Did Rusty become scarce when he couldn’t discuss his favorite group? That he, perhaps tellingly, would always bring up on Fridays and Saturdays?

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    Please free me from moderation! I need to explain my comments about Wright that were misinterpreted.
    .
    We’ve given you Lagoon power….
    .
    I did think that we may have missed something….

  • http://www.inworldstudios.com jayackroyd

    personally, I think the mod list is composed of words used by Cartman. Or maybe stuff that made Beevis and Bu++head crack up.

    (heh. I said “crack.”)

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