McCain in the Gutter

Despite the controversy that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s visit to New York City has triggered, Senator Barack Obama still vows to meet with rogue leaders if he is elected, reports CBS News’ Maria Gavrilovic.

“Nothing has changed with respect to my belief that strong countries and strong presidents talk to their enemies and talk to their adversaries,” Obama told reporters at a press conference after receiving an endorsement from the New York City Correction Officers’ Benevolent Association.

Obama said he would not have invited Ahmadinejad to speak at Columbia University, but he believes in academic freedom. “They have the right to invite people to speak. As I said, it’s not a choice that I would have made but we don’t need to be fearful of the rantings of somebody like Ahmadinejad.” Obama says the United Nations provides an adequate forum for Ahmadinejad to speak.

Obama was asked if his statements about Ahmadinejad were contradictory – why would he meet with the Iranian leader as U.S. president but not invite to speak if he were the Columbia University president? “There are two different functions, as president of the United States, my job is to look out for the national security interests of this country,” Obama said. “In the same way that Nixon met with Mao and that past presidents met with people that we don’t like.”
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Source: CBS News: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2007/09/24/politics/horserace/entry3291763.shtml

Nice of Mccain to follow in the footsteps of the late, great Republican, Joseph McCarthy.
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Joe Klein where are the Dick Lugars of the GOP to tell this crazy old b@st@rd that he’s playing with dynamite and STFU?

But the high point of Ahmadinejad’s week must have been Friday night, after his return to Iran. That was when John McCain and Barack Obama met in Mississippi for their first debate, and Obama reiterated once again his determination to meet Ahmadinejad “without preconditions” if he is elected in November.

“We . . . have to, I believe, engage in tough direct diplomacy with Iran,” Obama insisted. “And this is a major difference I have with Senator McCain. This notion – by not talking to people we are punishing them – has not worked.”

Obama first adopted this stance in July 2007, when he was asked in a debate whether he would agree to meet the rulers of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, and North Korea without preconditions and promptly answered: “I would.” His website reinforces that message, promising “direct presidential diplomacy with Iran without preconditions.” During Friday’s debate, Obama claimed that even Henry Kissinger, a McCain adviser, “just said that we should meet with Iran – guess what – without precondition.”

Obama was wrong about Kissinger, who rejected Obama’s view in a statement after the debate. And he is wrong on the broader issue, for at least three reasons: First, as McCain argued, an American president’s unconditional willingness to negotiate with the head of an outlaw regime gives that regime “more credence in the world arena.” The more Ahmadinejad and the mullahs who back him flout fundamental standards of civilized behavior – by fomenting terrorism, by murdering US peacekeepers, by convening Holocaust-denial conferences, by threatening Israel’s extermination – the more they crave international legitimacy. Face-to-face talks with the US president can only enhance Ahmadinejad’s stature at home and bolster his authority abroad.

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Source: Boston Globe, entire article: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/10/01/a_us_welcome_mat_for_ahmadinejad/

Nice of Mccain to follow in the footsteps of the late, great Republican, Joseph McCarthy.
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Joe Klein where are the Dick Lugars of the GOP to tell him that he’s playing with dynamite and to stop now!

I understand the L.A. Times is hiding a tape of Obama eating hummus.

And Dole calls her Sunday school teaching opponent “Godless” and in the Minnesota 3rd the NRCC is darkening the skin of the Democratic candidate.
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=528296&catid=14

It is who they are.

Reporter: Senator you’ve said before you’d meet with president Ahmadinejad…

Obama (nodding): Uh Huh

Reporter: … would you still meet with him today?

Obama: Nothing’s changed with respect to my belief that strong countries and strong presidents talk to their enemies and talk to their adversaries.
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Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2yJqWguCU

re-posted
Nice of Mccain to follow in the footsteps of the late, great Republican, Joseph McCarthy.
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Joe Klein where are the Dick Lug@rs of the GOP to tell McCain that he’s playing with dyna mite and to stop now.

The contrast with Obama’s entirely positive message last night is striking.
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Even on John Stewart, he was at most, gently mocking.

re-posted
Nice of Mccain to follow in the footsteps of the late, great Republican, Joseph McCarthy.
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Joe Klein, where are the Dick Lug@rs of the GOP to tell McCain that he’s playing with matches in a fire works factory and to stop now?

test

” .. Obama isn’t one of us, that he’s one of them. ..”
What McCain means by “us” is “the group of clueless curmudgeons” of which he is THE ranking member.
Here is an interesting piece I saw regarding a curmudgeon’s first presidential-level task – that was badly (and characteristically) botched:
“Is (Sarah Palin) really a diva and a whack job? Could be. There are quite a few in politics. (And a few in journalism, too, though in journalism they are called “columnists.”) – Roger Simon, Politico, Oct 30, 2008
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081030/pl_politico/15073

Nice of McCain to follow in the foot steps of the late, great Republican, Joseph McCarthy

It is who they are.
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It’s all they’ve got.
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And it’s not working.
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Joe Klein where are the D!ck Lug@rs of the GOP to tell McCain that he’s playing with dyna mite and to stop now.

newliberty
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News flash, thats what the correct policy position is. So says five former Secretariest of State, So says General Petraeus, So says even the Bush administration now. John McCain is the only idjut that still won’t commit to meeting Iran with our preconditions. I should also point out that Sarah Palin ddoesnt even know what a pre condition is. How sad

Joe — love the word crapulous — I am going to borrow it the first chance I get.

But I @ssume it was at this point that you realized that no matter how reasonable the McCain campaign may try to sound at first — it is clear that they live in an alternate universe where this kind of thing isn’t offensive to moderate Muslims, dishonorable for a potential president to be wallow in the gutter so often and with such gusto and terribly shortsighted — so he will he reach out to across the aisle with his hands covered in crapulous goo.

Yuo know, that headline need a modifier. “Still” in the Gutter? “Deeper” in the Gutter? “Covered with Sh!t lying in the gutter wheezing”?
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Something to indicate that he didn’t tumble in yesterday afternoon.

Hey can I say “crapulous?”

Doesn’t Rick Davis always look like he’s about to yell, “AFLAC!”

I think even some Wing Nuts are now smelling desperation. Its quite comical honestly and I think is likely to turn more true undecideds away from McCain more than towards him

pourme-

Or “You’re deshpicable.” D!ckerson called this long ago. Bugs always beats Daffy.

And why in hedubblehockysticks do these guys always try to wrap the Ameircan flag around them like “newliberty” anyway?
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I mean, is he/she implying that we just aren’t patriots, or something?
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Seems to me that he/she things that lies and innuendos, no matter how tenuous, are facets of patriotism that need to be polished.
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To a high shine…

In fairness, the ad calls Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the ‘President,’ which he is, and doesn’t call him ‘leader.’ But so what if he posits him as a leader? Haven’t both sides used him to symbolize Iranian leadership throughout this whole campaign? Just saying.

jay – I’m only working from home one more day, and I must get all my inane observations in while I can!

Anybody want to hazard a guess as to how HUGE of an endorsement this is?
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http://rawstory.com/news/afp/The_Economist_backs_Obama_in_US_pol_10302008.html

coffee: I followed your post on Barney the dog on the other thread.

@andy – Ha! I want to see him do the long Presidential Walk of Shame to the helicopter. I’m going to order wings and have friends over.

tom227,
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Joe Biden corrected Palin in the VP debate that the real leadership is the theocracy in Iran. I believe Obama made mention of it too but Im going to have to double check

If everyone who wants to vote, gets to vote, and if all the votes are counted, it’s going to be an Obama landslide. The idiots who continue to spew this sort of divisive nonsense are finished. Everyone knows it, but them.

The Economist is a nice prestige endorsement, but everyone I know who reads it is already voting for Obama. It was pretty clear that McCain completely lost The Economist after the Palin pick.

Shorter title: “McCain.” It eliminates the redundancy.

tom227,

Joe Biden corrected Palin in the VP debate that the real leadership is the theocracy in Iran. I believe Obama made mention of it too but Im going to have to double check

I concur — Obama has corrected McCain himself on this and I belive McCain’s ersponse was well why don’t you just talk to General Petraeus

jarais,
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Don’t forget that in her second try with FoxNews Sarah said when asked what she reads that she reads the Economist. Total BS and it waa predicted she would say the Economist but I just wonder if she is going to take their advice. lol

SG,
That was hilarious. She’s obviously never read it before because she would have noticed that they tore her apart immediately after her nomination (Lexington, “The Woman from Nowhere”). And we know she can hold a grudge.

It is entirely possible that Obama could lose the holy threesome of PA, OH and Fl and still carve out a victory via Virginia, New Mexico, Colorado, Iowa etc.

Deeper in the gutter in a different way on live tv. Just a slip of the tongue, twice, but not the kind of distraction he needs, my friends, at this stage.

Is this guy really trying to say that in the Bush years that revenue went up. Is he really going to ignore increasing the debt to 10 trillion dollars

Its hilarious and even Andrea Mitchell had to laugh that Doug Holtz-Eakin is trying to tie Obama to George Bush. Just how many “shticks” are they going to come up with?

Dee, UP is DOWN. DOWN is UP. He’s not very good with economics. that’s why he would select a VP candidate with economic experience like…oh this is too easy, like sh00ting fish in a barrel.

Anyone know who is paying for Joe the Plummer to show up at rallies for McCain?
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Just curious.

Queencersi don’t sweat it — that mason dixon poll showing that Pennsylvania is in range is crap. It’s funny how much the msm discounted polls that were outliers when they were positive towards Obama but this they are jumping all over even though all the other polls are saying something different. I learned to distrust polls from mason dixon long before Obama came to town.

Larry Sabato at Rasmussen calls it.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_larry_j_sabato/the_last_word_almost

gysgt,
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He isn’t showing up anymore so I guess nobody.

Well, what do you expect from the morally bankrupt McNasty campaign?

I think this post of Andrew Sullivan’s is worth seeing:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/the-end-of-amer.html#more

I want to know who the author is. Strikes me as articulate and well-spoken. Perhaps one of us?

Maybe Joe is off recording his new album!

*

the world waits with bated breath!!!

good grief

” .. If John McCain’s supporters are hoping for a “Bradley effect” bounce on Election Day, some pollsters and strategists say they may have another thing coming. .. “
Can we convince or hypnotize such voters to blank out the half they don’t like and to vote FOR the white half of Sen Obama?
[Just a whim - in a crazy racist world.]

the link:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/15070

In these trying times, it’s obvious that what we really need is a belicose and unyielding leader like John McCain. And if anything happens to him, we’ll be in good shape with Sarah Palin– she took a geography class at one of the community colleges she went to.

Every time you think McCain can’t tell any more lies, throw any more slime, or degrade the race for the Presidency and the institution of the Senate any further, he takes a quantum leap deeper into the toilet.

It’s not clear what he is saying in this clip. He’s probably referring to the capital gains tax cuts. Because the capital gains tax is alternately cut and raised, people who are holding long term capital gains sell when there are rate cuts. This doesn’t change the pattern of investment. Suppose you bought Google at a hundred when the capital gains tax was relatively high. You’re planning to keep it for a decade or so, but, say, two years into your ownership of the stock, it is up to 300, and the capital gains tax rate is at 15%. You sell the stock, pay the tax on the increase, and then buy the stock back again. This, of course, has the long term effect of reducing revenue, but in the year the cut takes place, revenue rises.
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Alternatively, he’s just lying. There is no empirical evidence for a Laffer effect at US income tax rates. There is more compliance at lower rates; people don’t use dodgy shelters when rates are low. In general, though, we know what good income taxation policy is. Broad base, low rates, few steps in a progressive tax structure. The arguments over treatment of capital gains and dividends would be moot if we abolished the corporate income tax.
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Anyone know who is paying for Joe the Plummer to show up at rallies for McCain?
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Just curious.

Good question to toss to AMC to ask, gunny.

Joe Bftsplk:
A good comment at Sully’s, but I didn’t care for this part:
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How can I be so sure? Because when the American President is inaugurated, it is directly homologous to the crowning of the King in ancient days: the King is the groom, the Nation is the bride, the crowning is the hieros gamos, the sacred marriage. When Barack Obama is sworn in as our 44th president, a symbolic marriage will be enacted, binding us together forever, black and white. We will have chosen to become one. We will have chosen to become family. The War will be over. E pluribus unum.
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That sort of talk riles up my mistrust of European royalty. Let’s try to keep the “King = Groom, Nation = bride” crap out of this.

These folks, whose lives are always materially worse under GOP administrations, are the people McCain is trying to provoke into fear and hatred with his lies and distortions. The McCain campaign is banking on fear and ignorance trumping knowledge, planning, and judgment. Happily, he might not succeed.
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It’s all too unsurprising to see McCain go in for mythology over fact on tax cuts, as well. There is no debate– every single tax cut ever has reduced gov’t revenue. And recall that the GOP voted against Clinton’s tax hikes in 1993 on the grounds that the economy would be destroyed. Now, in light of the fact that that never happened… McCain simply claims that Clinton cut taxes.
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A man with no honor.

All right, let’s try again, since the moderator bot is sh*tting its pants at my first go:
A good comment at Sully’s, but I didn’t care for the part about how America’s Presidential election is like the symbolic coronations of the past, with the King being the Groom and the Nation being the Bride.
It’s not a coronation, it’s a Presidential election, and I’d like it if people didn’t get them confused.

Remember the Repub hype about evil Chinese contributors to Democrats? Is anyone outside of Chicago seeing this
http://www.chicagotribune.com/ ne…0,1269595.story

about a secret Chinese non resident funneling donations to McCain through a house in Roselle Illinois that he owns but does not live in?

Agreed, Cliff, that comment at Sullivan’s went off the rails right there.

That crapulous ad reeks of desperation! What happened to rescinding all racist comments John McCain? Now you are first to endorse it. What a sharp contrast to Obama’s all-inclusive, empowering, uplifting speech last night.

I hope that Joe, et al, don’t allow McCain to “redeem” himself and just apologize his way out this sleaze after the election.

It is a sad way for him to go out, but he chose it.

Palin is a Dunce. Apparently she is not aware that the last two Presidents and their Secretaries of State as well as the Israelis have worked closely with the PLO leaders to negotiate peace in the region. Her snide swipe at Obama for knowing and even socializing with Rafidi years earlier is based solely upon Rafidi’s religion and PLO connections. Her rants may have stained if not ruined the Administration’s efforts to get the US allied, moderate Palestinians to the negotiating table. As any experienced diplomat will confirm, Contacts with the PLO are essential and Obama should be praised instead of pilloried by a no-nothing right-wing, lip stuck, distaff Troglydite flailing to win at all costs. Sarah, the US has formally recognized the PLO! Being geographically near the Bering Straits clearly shows the limits of your vision and comprehension of international conflicts.

Since there are 5 days left until the big voting day, I would really like the candidates to focus on really important issues such as global poverty. According to The Borgen Project:
$30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.
$540 billion: Annual U.S. Defense Budget.

It is a sad way for him to go out, but he chose it.
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It always infuriated me when people remembered Adm. Stockdale solely as a terrible candidate; ditto with Bob Dole. Both of them did run pretty bad campaigns, but they also gave a lifetime of service to the country.
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McCain, on the other hand, opted to use his campaign to unburden everyone of the illusion that he is a person with honor.

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From Benen, over at the WaMo

…There’s going to come a point, probably in a couple of weeks, at which John McCain is going to express some kind of “regret” for just how disgusting his campaign became. He’ll do this if he wins (hoping to generate some pre-inauguration goodwill), and he’ll do this is he loses (hoping to improve his tarnished and discredited legacy). McCain will probably say, with apparent sincerity, that things “got out of hand,” and he’s filled with “regret” for not having intervened before his campaign became too pathetic.

Quite true, and not really much of a stretch, considering:

Back in 2000, after John McCain lost his mostly honorable campaign for the Republican presidential nomination, he went about apologizing to journalists–including me–for his most obvious mis-step: his support for keeping the confederate flag on the state house.

I just can’t wait for the moment when John McCain–contrite and suddenly honorable again in victory or defeat–talks about how things got a little out of control in the pa$sion of the moment. Talk about putting lipstick on a pig.

I’m thinking that – whoever wins – the ‘dangerous three$ome’ of Obama, Pelosi, and Reid will be giving McCain a somewhat chilly reception back in DC.

I expected that McCain would flip flop on every important position he once held, but his flip flopping on “Straight Talk” has redefined his image as a symbol of hipocracy. I guess it’s “Country First” for everybody except McCain and Palin.

Second only to his long over-used tired phrase “My Friends”, most recently Senator McCain has with great energy and frequency declared “I’ve been tested!!”. Yet, while it is true that throughout his long life he has indeed been tested, it is also true that Senator McCain has repeatedly failed many of the great military, moral, and political tests he has been given as in his Low 10:

1) Finishing at near bottom rather than near the top of his Navy academy class. Proudly

2) Failure as a Navy Pilot crashing more planes than anyone else in his graduating class. Stuff happens

3) Failure to remain silent and instead giving up information to the enemy as a POW. Forgiven by your “Fellow Prisoners”.

4) Failing to get legally divorced from his first wife before getting married to his current wife. Not too sorry.

5) Failure to vote for the Martin Luther King Holiday only to weakly apologize for not doing so years later. Thanks for nothing.

6) Failure to vote in support of a myriad of veteran issues despite being a disabled veteran and consistently claiming great support of all veterans. Many veterans and veteran organizations say otherwise.

7) Failure to recognize that Iraq has never been the “central battleground” in the war against terrorism and only recently realizing that Osama bin Laden remains free in Afghanistan/Pakistan as a result. Al-Qaeda thanks you.

8) Failure to exercise political leadership by getting House Republicans to vote for a House Bailout Bill without earmarks followed by failing to be a Maverick when he voted for a Senate Bailout Bill with earmarks. A “Real Maverick” would have voted NO.

9) Failure to select a vice-presidential running mate qualified to serve as President on Day One if necessary. Me First, Country Second; and the

10) Moral Failure of choosing to employ the same sad cast of divisive characters that dragged him and his family through the mud in 2000 so that they could do the same against his opponent in 2008. How do you spell integrity?

Fortunately for Senator McCain, his opponent has passed the test of not using any of these major failures against him.

Senator McCain: You Have Been Tested and You Have Failed!

On the day Joe McCarthy, excuse me, John McCain apologizes for his out of control campaign, I’ll be reminded of what Jay Carney once said:

“Nothing to see here…move on!

I think these last frenzied and ugly days of McCain’s gutter campaign ads are just an appropriate and unsurprising final insight on the life of someone who has on the whole been a pretty dreadful and self serving man. Content of our characters, and all that, you know.

We talk about McCain the gutter candidate and ususally from the perspective that this is a recent invention. clealrym the media noticed that McCAin was a bully long before now right. Of course just like in grade school you are fine with it as long as the bully wasn’t picking on you. I’ve never seen anyone so old be so immature. And like all bullies everywhere he is an insecure little wretch that needs to put down others in order to feel important.

Just breaking (and conveniently unreported).
Absentee ballots from Israel show McCain with a 76% lead over Obama…contrary to polling which had them neck in neck.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/10/israel-absentee.html#more
Almost half (46%) of Democrats surveyed voted for McCain. 98% of Republicans and 79% of Independents voted for him as well.
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“Israel will always be a friend…of, uh, Israel.” – Barack Obama

Joe,

You use the word “crapulous”. I do not think that word means what you think it means. Unless you’re intending to give McCain’s people an out: they were drunk or hung over when they came up with this stuff.

Main Entry: crap·u·lous
Pronunciation: \’kra-pyə-ləs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin crapulosus, from Latin crapula
intoxication, from Greek kraipalē
Date: 1536
1 : marked by intemperance especially in eating or drinking
2 : sick from excessive indulgence in liquor

Perhaps you meant “craptastic”?

Dee when you’re a coddled member of the military elite, it’s easy to push people around. “My dad is an admiral,” and all that. A shame some deserving kid who wanted to serve didn’t get to be in the midshipman class iustead of McCain.

For those of you who thought you’ve seen it all here’s where you end up if you vote for Obama:

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/feature/2008/10/30/obama_hell/index.html

It’s a good thing I’m Jewish. We don’t believe in he!!.

Dee when you’re a coddled member of the military elite, it’s easy to push people around. “My dad is an admiral,” and all that. A shame some deserving kid who wanted to serve didn’t get to be in the midshipman cl@ss iustead of McCain.

For those of you who thought you’ve seen it all here’s where you end up if you vote for Obama:

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/feature/2008/10/30/obama_hell/index.html

It’s a good thing I’m Jewish. We don’t believe in he!!.

“Israel will always be a friend…of, uh, Israel.” – Barack Obama

I’m not surprised its not as sif Obama ran ads in Israel. These people don’t know him and McCain has been around a long rime. Unfortunately for you, America has had a chance to look at both candidates and they found McCain wanting.

Another interesting note…

Although RCP polling shows Obama with a 7 point lead in Nevada, he is virtually tied in early voting with McCain…even though 2/3 of voters in early voting so far in Neveda have been Democrats.
http://www.lvrj.com/news/33433079.html
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YTBjYzhiMmQ4NzQ1MGVjZjI5NGY2NDk2YTk2NTg0MDE=

I’m sure there is some reason why I or anyone else should care about that report, right new liberty (aka ny nick)?

Do “real Americans,” patriotic Americans have dual citizenship (as 52% of those surveyed did)?

As an American and a Jew, I can tell you that it is clear that Obama has a more balanced and 21st century view of the world. Israel has failed at crushing their enemies into submission militarily. For that matter, so has the United States. It is time for a new approach, where McCain offers only more of the same.

Further, we simply cannot afford to continue to engage in proxy wars on Israel’s behalf. Financially speaking, a war with Iran is out of the question, and the only people who don’t seem to understand that are John McCain and Sarah Palin.

The answer to the Iran problem is a “Grand Bargain,” one that the Iranians offered Bush in 2003 and in his infinite arrogance completely rebuffed. The outline is there, all we need is a president STRONG enough to sit down and talk. It may not succeed, but it is the least worst option and one that has not even been attempted.

It is not the destiny of this great nation to die in the deserts and hills of Persia and Mesopotamia.

i’ll try that again:
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I’m sure there is some reason why I or anyone else should care about that report, right new liberty (aka ny nick)?
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Do “real Americans,” patriotic Americans have dual citizenship (as 52% of those surveyed did)?
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As an American and a Jew, I can tell you that it is clear that Obama has a more balanced and 21st century view of the world. Israel has failed at crushing their enemies into submission militarily. For that matter, so has the United States. It is time for a new approach, where McCain offers only more of the same.
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Further, we simply cannot afford to continue to engage in proxy wars on Israel’s behalf. Financially speaking, a war with Iran is out of the question, and the only people who don’t seem to understand that are John McCain and Sarah Palin.
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The answer to the Iran problem is a “Grand Bargain,” one that the Iranians offered Bush in 2003 and in his infinite arrogance completely rebuffed. The outline is there, all we need is a president STRONG enough to sit down and talk. It may not succeed, but it is the least worst option and one that has not even been attempted.
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It is not the destiny of this great nation to die in the deserts and hills of Persia and Mesopotamia.

piper1
Barack Obama supports going to war with Iran if they have nuclear weapons.
Do you have a problem with that?

Cliff & Elvis-
Yeah, I haven’t given the article enough consideration to even know if I agree with it, but I thought “the end of the Civil War” was an interesting thing to think about. Particularly since Sully also has a post calling attention to the correspondence between Civil War sympathies and the current electoral map:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/two-maps-two-er.html

Crapulous. Nice, but I think CRAPTACULAR is a little better. YMMV.

I find it sad that McCain will not only lose this election, but his honor.

Absentee ballots from Israel show McCain with a 76% lead over Obama
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“The information is based on data collected from 817 absentee voters at several voting events in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv as well as an online survey.”
I hope those 620 votes don’t swing too many states to McCain.

New Liberty
do you have statistics for americans over seas as a whole?
Its odd to me that youre noting Israel by itself as if its the 51st State. how many electoral points is Israels absentee ballets worth.

McCains senior moment this morning:

From NBC/NJ’s Adam Aigner-Treworgy

DEFIANCE, Ohio — “Where is Joe? Is Joe here with us today?”

That’s the question John McCain asked roughly 6,000 people at Defiance Junior High School here this morning, But the correct answer was no — Joe the Plumber was nowhere to be found.

There are conflicting reports about where or when or if Joe will appear with McCain at some point during his two-day bus tour of Ohio, but the candidate clearly thought that he was meeting him here in Defiance, the first stop on the tour.

You prefer the old – say anything, pull any gimmick to get elected candidate? Mr. liberty?

Did you know john mcCain gave $500000 to this supposed PLO operative Sarah Palins accussing barack obama of palling around with now?

Give it a rest half-whit.

newliberty:
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I guess you are no better than Palin, that wonderful dominatrix we’ve been hearing so much about, on geography.
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Let’s see here. Hmmmm…
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I read in one of my paleontology books that 215,000,000 years ago, Isreal and the North American continent were pushed apart by tectonic forces.
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You are just a bit late, I’m afraid. Like, maybe, 215,000,000 years.
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Is that a tad to “intellectual” for you?

new liberty – I am not sure why I should give a rat’s @ss about Israel.

Joe Bftsplk – I agree that we’re seeing a continuation of the Civil War. I’m not as optimistic that if Obama is elected it will finish things.

So “newliberty” says that some of some 500 odd people, far, far away, in a foreign land, favoring McCain (that’s even if it is true, which really could be) is news?
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Only in Wasalia pop. 6681…

How do you want your 10 dollars 53_3?
In the words of the late great Hubert H Humphrey
“I do concede”

Just curious Joe, did you think the ad Obama ran questioning McCain’s health was low ball politics? And how about the “darkening” of Obama’s skin in Hillary Clinton’s ads?

Not saying McCain’s ad and the demand for the release of the LA Times tape isn’t low ball. All I’m saying is there has been slime by all candidates yet Time/Klein refuse to see/report/comment on it.

piper1:
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“Barack Obama supports going to war with Iran if they have nuclear weapons. Do you have a problem with that?”
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I think it’s hilarious that new”liberty” would try to hitch Obama’s wagon to rabid Neoconservative horses!

“Barack Obama supports going to war with Iran if they have nuclear weapons.”

Evidence?

As for whether I agree with this ficitious concept, I think I’ve made it pretty clear that I don’t support an American war against Iran barring direct aggression from Iran against the United States.

Sorry, the only potential solution to the Iranian nuclear problem is diplomatic. That’s why Barack Obama is better suited to dealing with this situation than a potential President “Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran.”

Joe Bftsplk — Again I am with Cliff– the tension b/w the rural and urban states will persist, just as it did after FDR, after Reagan, after everyone else who’s ever won big.
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It occurs to me that this would be a nice reason to do away with the electoral college– it would tamp down this whole, “my state’s more America than your state” business. It’s never been particularly deeply felt on the East Coast, I don’t think, but it does seem to be an issue in some more rural areas.
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I lived in the Midwest for a bit, and found it was every bit as parochial as the East Coast. The difference is, they have an inferiority complex about our more justified parochialism.

I lived in the Midwest for a bit, and found it was every bit as parochial as the East Coast. The difference is, they have an inferiority complex about our more justified parochialism.
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Gold.

dancingoutlaw — why is it so hard to see that there is a big difference between question someones policies and positions and questioning their belonginess based on being different from you. McCain has questioned Obama’s patriotism, integrity, and Americanism to name a few. McCain once said that a one didn’t have to have military service in order to qualify for the presidency — yet he rebuked Obama for daring to speak to veterans issues (something that any president would have to be concerned with) because he didn’t serve. McCAin is a low life who dares anyone to question his honor and vorcity based on surviving a situation beyond his control 40 years ago.

PNNTO:
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Beleive me, I’m very dissappointed! I wanted to lose that bet!
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It’s all the fault of the High Sheriff, whose head should be chawed off slowly by feral weasels.
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Can you send it to the NAACP, or a college minority scholarship fund? At least some good will come of it…

newliberty is the new obamish. If not the old obamish in drag

Elvis, ANY reason to dispense with the Electoral College is a nice one.
Heck, I’d settle for the “cost reduction” argument.

Dee in Columbia MD:

Re-read my post — I didn’t condone his ads. I simply pointed out that everyone in politics engages in the same type of conduct. The Obama ad on McCain’s health is cheap and has nothing to do with his policies. Hillary Clinton questioned Obama’s patriotism, integrity and Americanism every time she or her husband opened their mouths. She described “hard working America” as “white America”. Yet most of you — Time included — seem to think that only republicans are capable of cheap shots. Where do you think McCain got the “not one of us playbook” — your standard-bearers for the last 16 years — the Clintons.

And if McCain were such a scum bag, he wouldn’t have declared Jeremiah Wright off limits.

dancingoutlaw:
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“Just curious Joe, did you think the ad Obama ran questioning McCain’s health was low ball politics?
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I think most of the un- and under- insured don’t think so. I don’t think so, either. I’m pretty sure that the McCain/Palin charge of “socialism” will balance this one off nicely, don’t you think? Remember, though, I’m spotting you a couple facts, none of which exist in that particular smear by McCain.
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“And how about the “darkening” of Obama’s skin in Hillary Clinton’s ads?”
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Now, dance, don’t you think that maybe the real question here should be the fact that the McCain camp has gone rather farther in it’s quest for divisive racial hatred? Just a tweensy bit farther, maybe, as “End his life!” just really doesn’t seem to have any equivalence here?
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“Not saying McCain’s ad and the demand for the release of the LA Times tape isn’t low ball.”
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Why should they? Was a crime committed? Or is this just because McCain wants more fodder for posilutely crapulous contrafactual pretzelizations to air? I mean, just who invented, uh, Swiftboat? Not us, said the first goat…
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“All I’m saying is there has been slime by all candidates yet Time/Klein refuse to see/report/comment on it.”
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Come get your false equivalancies right here! Free for the taking! Crunch all you want! We’ll make more…

53-Well I wanted you to lose too! I felt we were close before the crash.
It’s United Way week at the office I can add your 10 to my donation, close enough or would you prefer the NAACP.
(To everyone else sorry for this distraction)

PNNTO:
Nah! United way is a good orgainization. Fire it over there.
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Didya notice I had to find some excuse to use the word ‘crapulous’ in at least one sentance!
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I dood it! I dood it!

Thank you Joe.
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I honestly can’t remember the last pro-McCain argument that wasn’t based on racism, fear, nationalism or a gross misrepresentation of reality.
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It makes me cringe to read excerpts from his interview with Larry King where he says race won’t be an important factor in this election– when the majority of his campaign seems based on race. His speeches, ads, etc focus on the scary black muslim theme: radical, ACORN, socialism, associations, dangerous, Wright, redistribute the wealth, terrorists, not like you and me… Even Ayers, who is white, plays into the theme: it is not that Ayres is a former criminal, it is that he is a domestic TERRORIST- scary black muslim theme accomplished.
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I’ll be very happy when this election is over and intelligent people start to work on solutions to our problems.

Just curious Joe, did you think the ad Obama ran questioning McCain’s health was low ball politics? And how about the “darkening” of Obama’s skin in Hillary Clinton’s ads?
dancingoutlaw, neither of those things happened. MoveOn questioned McCain’s health, not the Obama campaign, and the “darkening” thing was debunked.
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It’s all inflammatory nonsense, of course. Obama has said that he would meet with the Iranian leadership without “preconditions”–namely, the Bush Administration requirement that the Iranians stop processing uranium. Of course, the Bush Administration doesn’t seem so set on that precondition anymore, either. Again, this is a purposeful effort to mislead on Obama’s actual position: he would begin lower-level negotiations with the Iranians, and see how much progress could be made. That is a position supported by many of McCain’s own diplomatic supporters.
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This is all true. But maybe in retrospect Obama should have quickly admitted that he misspoke at the debate. It’s just a fact that the questioner was asking about unconditional meetings with the President, not the Secretary of State or lower-level diplomatic aides. That is what Obama said “Yes” to. And the Republicans who support Obama’s (current) position, like Kissinger, don’t support the idea of unconditional meetings between the America President and the leaders of Iran, Cuba, etc. The truth is that Obama’s current position is the mainstream position in the foreign policy community, and it’s not what he said in the YouTube debate. Is the truth really so terrible? If he had admitted the truth quickly, no one would be talking about this. It would be like the gaffe about the 57 states or the thousands killed in that hurricane that killed about 10 people: a perfectly understandable mistake that any sleep-deprived human being talking several hours a could make. McCain has made more of those gaffes than any of the other candidates…

newliberty is more rational (slightly) than osamish.

My bet is newliberty is ny nick and pa56independent is good ol’ Rustypooch. No word yet from the former Osamish/ Question Hillary/ McCain4America or the easy-to-spot single-paragraph musings of Jamesryan.

D’oh! Let me try that again:

newliberty is more rational (slightly) than osamish.
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My bet is newliberty is ny nick and pa56independent is good ol’ Rustypooch. No word yet from the former Osamish/ Question Hillary/ McCain4America or the easy-to-spot single-sentence-paragraph musings of Jamesryan

Dee in MD:

Apparently I’m in moderation, so I’ll try again. You need to re-read my post. I didn’t condone the ad. I’m simply trying to point out that slimy politics is something practiced by all. The McCain playbook for painting Obama as “someone different” came from none other than Hillary and Bill Clinton — your standard bearers for the last 16 years.

Excellent 53, it will be done before the rooster crows thrice.

If the next 5 days are like what I expect them to be we will all be using that word. And worse (presuming moderation)

newliberty Says:
[...]what you think about Sarah Palin being called “rogue,” “diva,” and “whacko.”

You mean the “anonymous” McCain staffers? That is a ridiculous, fabricated, un-sourced claim being ironically repeated by the Obama campaign at every opportunity.

I offer this as a public service in case anyone is concerned that newliberty’s ramplings might be grounded in reality. He apparently lives in a world, where reputable journalists routinely make s4i^ up.

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newliberty: …even though 2/3 of voters in early voting so far in Neveda have been Democrats.
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Really? That article you linked to says that closer to half are Dems and that bit only applies to two counties.
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Nice bit o’ spin there, Libbie.

“pa56independent is good ol’ Rustypooch”

The Physician/Viet Nam vet/husband/father/successful businessman who has many employees with friends and family in Iraq is back?
And no one told me???

dancingoutlaw, my reply to you is stuck in moderation. I’ll try again:
Just curious Joe, did you think the ad Obama ran questioning McCain’s health was low ball politics? And how about the “darkening” of Obama’s skin in Hillary Clinton’s ads?
Neither of those things happened. MoveOn questioned McCain’s health, not the Obama campaign, and the “darkening” thing was debunked.

g_crush FWIW I know one “inside” person in Democratic politics.
That person is in Nevada.
He tells me they are very confident, and surprised to find themselves in such a good position.

dancingoutlaw — Yes I agree there were aspects to the Clinton campaign that were quite sleazy and Bill especially paid a price for it. I will give her credit for not going as far as Penn would have liked but I belive she was knee deep in the wright debacle and if she had one I would’ve no doubt been a puma for at least until I got my 401K statement in October. I just don’t want anyone to confuse Obama’s attacks on the rights philosphy and policies as akin to McCain’s crapola.

Oh electronic censors, let my comment go…
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This moderation is crapulous…
(I had to get me some of that)

PNNTO;
“…s4i^ up”
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Let me venture a guess. You picked up a cup of coffee, took your eyes off the keyboard, and your slinger fipped.
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Now tell me it ain’t so!

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piper1: …the easy-to-spot single-sentence-paragraph musings of Jamesryan.
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Hey! With the change to the comment section formatting, Jamesryan’s musings will now be all one big, happy paragraph.
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Isn’t that just swell?

Who was it that said, in those early, idyllicly troll-free though maddeningly moderated (as they are still!) days of wordpress, that they kind of missed the trolls ?
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I actually think newlib is kaybeel…the pa56 call is probably right on.
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The only good thing about this new format is, now that names are at the top of the post, I won’t even have to read a fragment of a sentence before scrolling past .
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What a bunch of morons these swill-drooling cretins are. I would have tried that in pirate, but don’t want to get moderated, mateys .

grape:
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You may have a point here. “newliberty” had to work hard just to take up what little space he managed at the top of the thread.
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Plus, now 100-line linkfests, neether…

pirate wench:
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Avast ye!
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I wants the trolls. Unedited. It gets downright boring when one has to much finer comb to get the nits out…

I know the high sheriffs have been called out, but the real shame is that the two fixes (1) that would most improve things are known to be not only possible, but extremely easy. (1) – Modifying banned word list, and changing to theme with paragraph spacing and larger font.

(take two…)
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Thank you Joe.
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I honestly can’t remember the last pro-McCain argument that wasn’t based on racism, fear, nationalism or a gross misrepresentation of reality.
.
It makes me cringe to read excerpts from his interview with Larry King where he says race won’t be an important factor in this election– when the majority of his campaign seems to be based on race. Most of his speeches, ads, etc focus on the scary black muslim theme: radical, ACORN, socialism, a$$ociations, dangerous, Wright, redistribute the wealth, terrorists, not like you and me… Even Ayers, who is white, plays into the theme: it is not that Ayres is a former criminal, it is that he is a domestic TERRORIST- scary black muslim theme accomplished.
.
I’ll be very happy when this election is over and intelligent people start to work on solutions to our problems.

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PNNTO: FWIW I know one “inside” person in Democratic politics…in Nevada. He tells me they are very confident, and surprised to find themselves in such a good position.
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Not suprised, ‘tho I’m still sure that Obama’s margin will be less than the 7 points RCP average is currently showing.

Wow, the word “a$$ociations” (sans $) put me in limbo. But crapulous is fine. Crapulous, crapulous, crapulous.

I just realized the moderator, blast his soul, garfed down my message to dancingoutlaw and is currently digesting it whole!
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dancingoutlaw:
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“Just curious Joe, did you think the ad Obama ran questioning McCain’s health was low ball politics?”
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I think most of the un- and under- insured don’t think so. I don’t think so, either. I’m pretty sure that the McCain/Palin charge of “socialism” will balance this one off nicely, don’t you think? Remember, though, this caveat:
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I’m spotting you a couple facts , none of which exist in that particular smear by McCains’ camp!
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“And how about the “darkening” of Obama’s skin in Hillary Clinton’s ads?”
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Now, dance, don’t you think that maybe the real question here should be the fact that the McCain camp has gone rather farther in it’s quest for divisive racial stuff? Just a tweensy bit farther, maybe, as “K!ll h!m!” just really doesn’t seem to have any equivalence here?
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“Not saying McCain’s ad and the demand for the release of the LA Times tape isn’t low ball.”
.
Why should they? Was a crime committed? Or is this just because McCain wants more fodder for posilutely crapulous contrafactual pretzelizations to air? I mean, just who invented, uh, Swiftboat? Not us, said the first of the Billy Goats Gruff…
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“All I’m saying is there has been slime by all candidates yet Time/Klein refuse to see/report/comment on it.”
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Come get your false equivalancies right here! Free for the taking! Crunch all you want! We’ll make more…

Damm! Even when one tries to completely sanitize one’s messages of any possible offense, however small, the “moderator” hangs on to your leg like an elderly pit bull…

The Physician/Viet Nam vet/husband/father/successful businessman who has many employees with friends and family in Iraq is back?
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That’s interesting, because the last I heard, NOBama08 was going to be kicking it in Bermuda, laughing at all the poor people scrambling through the economic downturn.
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You know, like a real American.

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arse-sociations
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I looked at the WordPress mod help section yesterday – It looks like the modbot can’t be easily configured to do an EXACT string search, only a LIKE, which means that it looks for the naughty word even if it is part of non-naughty word.
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*sigh*

The moderater still hasn’t barfed up my comments…

From Fox News:

“He needed to make himself look totally white,” he said, adding Obama should have acknowledged that even though his skin is slightly darker, he’s still a regular human being.

“It’s going to come down to whether the average Joe or Jane accepts Barack Obama as an African-American or a human being,” he said.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/30/media-analysts-split-effectiveness-obama-infomerical/

Media Analysts Split on Effectiveness of Obama Infomercial

I will give her credit for not going as far as Penn would have liked but I belive she was knee deep in the wright debacle
Dee, I just have to point out there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that she was “knee deep in the wright debacle.” I like being in the reality-based community…
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“And how about the “darkening” of Obama’s skin in Hillary Clinton’s ads?”
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“Now, dance, don’t you think that maybe the real question here should be the fact that the McCain camp has gone rather farther in it’s quest for divisive racial stuff? Just a tweensy bit farther, maybe, as “K!ll h!m!” just really doesn’t seem to have any equivalence here?”
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53_3, good point. Even when things are made up – like the darkening thing – they’re still not equivalent to what the McCain campaign is doing. Seriously, if people are just going to make up instances of the Clinton campaign’s racism to push the false equivalency narrative, why not go further? Why not say that Clinton issued viral videos attacking Obama with Middle Eastern music and linking him with young blond female celebrities?
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And here’s the info on the “darkening” lie: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/did_clinton_darken_obamas_skin.html

man, you said it joe

piss on obama and the people who support him.

Demwoman,

GREAT call on newliberty= kaybeel. I know that pseudo-reasonable stance sounded familiar but misplaced the memory.
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Kaybeel indeed, I owe you one.

It often seems that “pre-conditions” to be met before Bush et al will agree to a meeting with foreign leaders are in fact the desired end of such meeting. Bush would not meet with Iran on ending production of fissionable nuclear material until Iran stopped producing material.

The argument that pictures of the President meeting with certain foreign leaders will give those leaders enhanced prestige among their followers has some merit, but I never hear it mentioned that having the U.S. President engaged in dialogue and/or negotiation with these leaders will give hope and encouragement to the forces opposed to the leaders, which are often the forces the U.S. favors. As the richest and most powerful country in the history of the world, the U.S. should be able to absorb minor pinpricks to its perceived reputation in furtherance of worthwhile goals.

You got it right Joe. Most Americans don’t know that Ahmadinejad is a third-level leader and has NO REAL POWER. I don’t care that his title is President- the man has no real power. This ad is the ABSOLUTE WORST I have seen in any campaign-period. This ad is designed to do ONE THING- try and convince more people he is a Muslim/Terrorist and GALVANIZE the 23% who do (in Texas) to get out and vote against Obama.

McCain/Palin should be investigated conspiracy charges. They have convinced people that Obama is DANGEROUS and this causes some people to plot violence as Brian Ross just reported. I have a lot of family members who are highly educated who believe this garbage about Obama. They really believe it. I know the media thinks it’s an “excuse” because he’s black, but that generally not the case. They believe it because McCain the WAR HERO says it along with the robocalls, emails, articles, blogs, etc. All of which McCain is RESPONSIBLE FOR. If he would have denounced all of this – the email stuff- then it wouldnt’ be able to survive. It would have to DIE off except for the few fringe folks. But the people I hear this stuff from are NOT ON THE FRINGE! They are teachers, Bankers, Managers- normal educated people. This is going to cause lasting damage. If Obama wins, many of these people will not stop believing this stuff and who knows what they might be capable of?

McCain must admit that all of this stuff is false and STOP NOW before it’s too late. Please do something!

[...] Read Full Post Here Book Mark it-> del.icio.us | Reddit | Slashdot | Digg | Facebook | Technorati | Google | StumbleUpon | Window Live | Tailrank | Furl | Netscape | Yahoo | BlinkList Tags: gutter, Joe, Klein, McCain, Time [...]

What difference does it make to McCain who the leader of Iran is?

He don’t talk, he don’t negotiate. No need to know who’s in charge.

[...] Over at the Time site Swampland, Joe Klein looks at it this way: [...]

[...] that it’s hard to keep track of it all – but this ad, via Andrew Sullivan, marks some sort of low. http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2008/10/30/mccain-in-the-gutter/?xid=rss-topstoriesJoe the Plumber, McCain, and ObamaSo, &quotJoe the Plumber&quot is really Sam and he doesn’t have a [...]

The ad’s most negative strategy is the stripping of context from both the CNN YouTube debate question and Obama’s response:
http://whenrepublicansattack.com/2008/11/01/preconditioning/